6/29/2006 03:10:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|Recently, I've been having a dialogue with a friend and confidant whom I respect and with whom I enjoy intellectual sparring on a wide variety of topics. Our topic du jour has been the issue of racism, how to identify it and how to address it in a ministry context. It is an interesting (and might I add...on-going) exchange and it is forcing me to examine my own attitudes and responses to something that indeed stains many "southern" and "conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist" churches. I pastor a larger church that, in all honesty, has taken unbiblical positions in its history on issues of race, integration and prejudice toward people of color. It is a stain on the fabric of our church's reputation and it has limited our ministry and diminished our effectiveness if the truth be told. I know of very few out-and-out prejudiced or racist individuals (in or out of our church) but that doesn't mean that we have a Biblical attitude toward how we should treat others who don't look "just like us." One of the challenges of my own leadership is that I need to discern it, confront it and deal with it -- not from a cultural perspective, not from a pragmatic perspective, but from a BIBLICAL perspective. And it would also be nice if I could do it in such a way that it creates healing and repentance and unity, not controvery, disharmony and re-opened wounds. Quite frankly, I'm still searching for answers. But a larger issue still looms as I experience the microcosm of the problem in my own ministry. What do we do about the transending problem of addressing unBiblical attitudes toward racial harmony in the Body of Christ as a whole and in local churches individually? Recent surveys have revealed that one of the most segregated places in America is the church on Sunday mornings. Many of us send our kids to Christian school that were, at their inception, little more than white flight academies. It takes missionaries going to African continents far longer to raise their support from our local congregations than it does for missionaries going to European or even South American countries. Why is this? Could it be that there is still the shadow of latent racism casting its ugly shadow over conservative evangelical congregations? Some would argue that many evangelical churches have outreaches to the homeless, inner-city neighborhoods and even run buses and vans into minority communities offering free rides for the kids to Sunday school. I think these are wonderful and important facets of ministry. But I would also ask, if this is a part of our mission for reaching people of color, why aren’t our adult worship services more integrated then? Could it be that we don’t mind taking ministry to minorities, even busing their kids to Sunday school, but somehow the “welcome mat” isn’t put out when it comes to making them part of the internal life of the church? If that is the case, and I suspect it is far too frequently, then we are sinning against God and violating His word and we ought not ignore that. Where are majority white congregations with a black or latin Senior Pastor? Where are the black or brown associate pastors on our staffs and deacons or elders on our boards? What have we done to welcome and develop and prioritize racial minority representation and participation in our local churches? Shouldn't the church be at the forefront of this and not a johnny-come-lately? I’m afraid that some of us in churches today would protest vehemently if someone accused us of being racist, yet, under the right circumstances, in “safe” places, among our “own kind”, we are just as likely to utter some insensitive or racially derogatory remark and not even realize it unless someone had the courage to call our attention to it. How can we expect to be the kind of lighthouse for the grace and love of Christ to all people if we fail so frequently and miserably in demonstrating that grace and love in our own lives? Sure there are cultural differences that may impact where we feel more comfortable during worship. I’ve preached at black churches in the past wherein I was the person present with the least amount of rhythm. I mean, I can’t even clap to the beat. I’ve also worshipped with Hispanic congregations where the openness and emotion were far freer than I am used to from a more staid tradition. But quite honestly, these small impediments shouldn’t keep us from being warm and welcoming to those who may not “look like us” on the outside when in the eyes of God, we are all just sinners saved by grace. It’s time some of us took a look at our inner heart and ask the Lord to reveal any hint of residual racism that may lurk therein. Whether it is something so overt as telling a racist joke or simply insensitivity based on stereotypes and cultural traditions, we ought not make excuses for attitudes, actions and words that cause pain, demean character and build walls. We need to confront this problem honestly and deal with it Biblically. Christians should be leading the way by confessing the sin of racism and building bridges that will move us beyond the dark days of our past. Only when we deal with this thoroughly can we expect to remove the shadows of latent racism that limit our effectiveness in presenting the gospel to all peoples today. Dan Burrell is on hiatus for a few weeks. He will return in mid-July. Until then he is reposting a few early blog posts and articles from his syndicated commentary. This post was originally published in February 2005.|W|P|115160830891407423|W|P|The Stain of "Latent Racism"|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/29/2006 04:30:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Gordon|W|P|Amen, Amen and AMEN!6/30/2006 05:00:00 PM|W|P|Blogger mb|W|P|Funny, I was thinking about this last Sunday as I was counting to see how many in our congregation were African-American. Guess how many I counted in our 400-ish size church..........................................................................................................0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My heart sinks as I write this. Didn't Paul say to be all things to all people. OUCH! Oh wait. I do know of one "white" family who adopted a boy who was African-American. Hats off to us as we allow a "Spanish" church to rent our facilities. They have a spanish pastor, spanish music and all spanish people. I'm not sure if even that makes me feel any better.6/30/2006 05:02:00 PM|W|P|Blogger mb|W|P|SORRY. MY ....... GOT A LITTLE CARRIED AWAY AND DIDN'T POST RIGHT. THE ANSWER WAS 0, ZERO, NADA.7/01/2006 11:57:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Well, Barnabus, I guess all I can say is that if you sat where I sit, you might see things differently. If you were to hear of those who have been affected by the racism that was a part of the fabric of Southern evangelical and fundamentalist churches, I hope you would think differently.

I'm of the opinion that intellectual honest demands that we admit when we've been wrong (even as growth, maturity and spiritual progress grants us wisdom and discernment) and seek forgiveness and reconciliation with those whom we have sinned against. Let me be plain...integration is a blot upon any institution that spoke in favor of it and that would run the gamut from Bob Jones University to the Northside Baptist Church. And if you don't believe that the residual stain of latent racism is not still a problem in southern churches all across the country, then you are not paying attention or you don't know any African-American believers.

I've heard it with my own ears. I've had them refer to literature published defending racism and integration. I've heard how they were treated in churches where they were treated as less than welcome. I've actually attended a high profile church in Greenville, SC with a black friend and experienced the looks, the silence and the discomfort as a firsthand witness.

I love the family of the founding pastor of this church. Even in the family in which I was reared, Biblically indefensible attitudes were commonplace. I love and am proud of the heritage of NBC. But I won't let that love or some misguided sense of loyalty prevent me from speaking up when we need to deal with past sin or error. I won't even do that when it is I who has sinned or is in error.

But on this point, I am not in error. It is not unique to our church, but our church was indicative of the problem and we ALL need to address the residual stains that still exist.

The grace that comes from the crimson fountain is energized by our repentance. We should embrace both the grace and our responsibility to repent.7/07/2006 02:11:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|FreedomfromBondage....Actually the questions you posed are often used in a variety of arguments. When used to defend segregation, they are pretty easy to dismantle -- particularly when committed to a Christian World View which I assume you are.

These questions come from a philosophical position known as "naturalism" which insists that the only truth that can be known is what is found in science. It obviously is dependent upon evolution and thus the questions regarding "rhinos with rhinos", etc...

The believer knows that Man and Animals are two separate created species. Man is created in the image of God wherein animals are not. Man has qualities and gifts given to him by God that animals do not possess (a soul, self-awareness, self-determination, etc...) To compare animal behavior with human behavior falls outside of a CWV.

BUT...even without that basic philosophical difference, it is easy to dismantle. The questions you raise deal with inter-species breeding. While even some same-species creatures do not "naturally" interbreed -- it still is possible for them to do so. An example is the cross-breeding done between a tiger and a lion which has created the "liger". Or another example is the breeding of a horse and a donkey which creates a(n) (infertile) mule.

But anyone who has ever owned a "mutt" dog or a herd of cattle knows that within the species, cross-breeding regularly occurs.

Addressing the separation of the people at Babel and the Continents, I'd note several things.

First, the separation of the continents as an excuse for no-mixing of the races is bogus because when the continents were separated (post-flood), God deposited all eight survivors (who were of one family) in the same place. I suspect this is part of the equally bogus belief that the black man is the by-product of Ham's sin and God's subsequent judgment, but there is no scriptural basis whatsoever for this little gem of racist theology which was taught in segregationist churches for decades.

Indeed, we do know, that racial intermarriage was widely practiced throughout Scripture including Moses (Zipporah) and David and Solomon and Samson and others. There was no condemnation among them. The condemnation against intermarrying was largely connected to intermarrying with the enemies of Israel and those that practiced pagan religions. Even Ruth and Rahab -- non-Jews who intermarried, became part of the lineage of Christ.

As for Babel being an excuse for the separation of races, we do not see that in Scripture. The divisions were not racial -- they were linguistic. Something quite different.

But I'd also note that each of these examples took place in the OLD Testament. Even if there was to be some validity to them (which I'm not suggesting), under Grace and the New Covenant, we know that Scripture teaches us an equality of believers that breaks down the walls of racial separation. "where there is neither Greek nor Jew, bond nor free, circumcised nor uncircumcised, etc..." In Christ we are all equal -- and that includes socio-economic, gender, national and racial differences.

I hope this helps in the dismantling of those arguments which some often use.7/10/2006 12:41:00 PM|W|P|Blogger patrick mitchell|W|P|great article...yes this racism exists in many southern evangelical churches even if people don't realize it! it's the way they were raised. this southern culture has warped the minds of christians. i would suggest anyone with questions to read the book ONE BLOOD by Ken Ham which answers most of these questions/philosophies6/28/2006 08:50:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|Much is being said, written and debated regarding “worship” these days. We call our church services “worship services”, but in reality, most of us confine our thoughts of worship to that portion of the service, which is primarily music with the occasional prayer or scripture reading inter-twined. But in viewing worship services as such, we miss the benefits of fully worshipping through every part of the service. Consider how we can worship by fellowshipping. Arriving at church in time to give testimony to one another about how God is working in our lives. Let me pause here and express personal aggravation for people who are never late to work, to a movie or getting their kids to school, but who can’t manage to drag themselves to church in time for Sunday school or before the second hymn is sung. I think tardiness to church is a loud statement about what we really think is important in life. But I digress. Greeting one another, learning of burdens and prayer requests, sitting quietly with a friend and praying for each other are all expressions of worship and body life that are Biblical and healthy. No doubt, music is integral to worship, but quite frankly, many people miss the blessing of worship because they are too fixated on whether or not they like the song, the style of the song, how it is sung, what the singer is wearing and whether or not there is applause after it is offered. Once again, we too often miss the point. We are NOT the audience; God is and that should change our perspective. It doesn’t matter whether or not we like the song, the singer or the style – does He? And it is wrong to assume that God always likes exactly what we like, not to mention arrogant. Next Sunday, try really paying attention to the words of the hymns and choruses. Sing to the Lord and not just about the Lord. If you need to, close your eyes and focus on the Lord to eliminate outside distractions. Try praying when you are tempted to criticize. The offering is a part of worship. Throughout temple and tabernacle worship in Scripture, a part of the worship service was the presentation of tithes and special gifts. It embodied submission, it communicated obedience, it was motivated by devotion and it reminds the giver of their dependence upon God, as He owns all things. Don’t just plop a check into the plate as it goes by; pray that God will honor it as you do. Don’t see how little you can give or give with resentment. Instead be a joyful – even reckless giver who abandons self-interest in an act of worship to the Owner of all. Don’t forget to worship during the sermon. In many churches, quiet and not-so-quiet “Amen’s” punctuate the sermon as people proclaim their agreement. The term from which we get “Amen” actually means “so be it” and communicates that we want the salient point to be true in our own lives. It’s almost an exclamatory prayer. Speaking of prayer, when someone leads in prayer, don’t just listen to what they have to say. If they are truly praying, they aren’t talking to you anyway. Why don’t you join them yourself --- if no one is following them in prayer, can it honestly be said then that they are “leading” in prayer? I’ve visited churches in France and Cuba and Africa where people joined aloud as someone lead in prayer and the music of voices blended together in prayer was just incredible. Did you know that the invitation or decision time is also a time of worship? Worship is about yielding what is God’s to Him. That means we have a worship opportunity to think on what we’ve learned through the music, fellowship, giving, preaching and prayer and commit ourselves to obedience as the Holy Spirit leads us to change. To do so is an act of worship. So this week when you head to church, let’s be fully committed to real worship in every part of the service. It’s not merely a service or an exercise or an event – it’s something far more eternal. It’s Worship! Dan Burrell is on hiatus from Whirled Views for a few weeks. This is a reprint of an article posted in January of 2005. Dan will be back in mid-July.|W|P|115154225182777974|W|P|A "Fresh" Look at Worship|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/26/2006 11:21:00 AM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|I just got back from speaking at Piedmont Baptist College in Winston-Salem, NC this morning. I always enjoy speaking to college kids. They are typically earnest, yet appropriately discombobulated. They are at the cusp of adulthood, curiously curious and often full of themselves. I miss those days in my own life having settled into the typical middle-aged morass of having more maturity than energy. I spoke on the topic of "temptation." I thought it would be an appropriate subject considering that in a mere couple of weeks, most of them will be back home, with their old friends, visiting their old haunts. I watched some kids pretty much come "undone" during Christmas break during my own college years and the sudden relief from daily college stress often came with a price of stupid decisions and unBiblical behavior. The subject of temptation is an important one regardless of the age of life in which we find ourselves. Certainly, temptation varies according to the stage of life or even time of year. Things that tempted me when I was younger aren't the draw as much today, but I find that other things have emerged to replace those youthful temptations. So I've penned some thoughts on the topic. Temptation happens. If you never experience temptation, then you’re dead – either brain dead or physically dead. We can be tempted to cuss, quit, lie, cheat, steal, murder, trick, do violence, rage, sneak, mock, blaspheme, indulge, gossip, accuse, harm, cover and rebel. Chances are each of us have been tempted to do all of that considerable list and more, and more than once. A frequent question on the heart of many believers is “why doesn’t God deliver me from these temptations?” I’ve spoken to people who struggle with their tempers, with feelings of worthlessness, with homosexual attractions, with materialism, with pride, with gluttony, with adultery – and they often say, “I don’t WANT to be this way – how can I get victory? Did God make me this way? Why doesn’t He change what I want?” Certainly there are some times when “testing” comes into our lives and God is in control of the circumstances and situation. He wants to use what is occurring to teach us something, to test our mettle, to mature us, to add to our perspective, to prepare us. If we endure the test, we come out on the other side better and wiser and stronger. But in the midst of the test, there is also the presence of “temptation.” This is Satan’s attempt to sidetrack us, to make our defeat his victory, to provide a way of escape that will weaken us and keep us from maturing spiritually. There are many examples of this in the Scripture. The Children of Israel would be one of the best examples. God had delivered them from slavery and captivity. He had performed ten miraculous plagues to obtain their release. He had protected their firstborn. He had split the Red Sea. He had given them manna in the dew and fresh water from rocks. Yet, they became thirsty and found only undrinkable bitter water, they turned on God and blamed Him. When Moses was gone a little too long up on the mountain, they took their gold and made an idol. When they tired of Moses’ leadership, a band of them rose up in rebellion and sought to overthrow him. In the midst of a trial or a test, they gave in to temptation. Make no mistake, whenever you are under stress and pressure and enduring a trial, Satan is going to do his best to add temptation to do wrong to your burden. You commit to taking an evangelism or discipleship class and it gets long or hard or inconvenient. Satan will tell you that you aren’t smart enough, or the teacher isn’t interesting enough, or the expectations are too difficult so that you’ll quit. You have an illness or someone you love does and you are faced with difficult treatment or even death. Satan will tempt you to get mad at God, to “curse God and die”, to exact revenge on others, to give in to hopeless depression, to quit or ignore your faith. You lose your job or get laid off or your car breaks down or an unexpected bill comes along – this is a trial…a test to see if you are willing to trust God and keep your faith steady. Satan will come along and say, “Quit tithing, what good is God doing you now that you are in this situation?” Perhaps he’ll tempt you to steal or cheat on your taxes or default on a debt. Satan’s goal is to turn your test into temptation. God will help you endure life’s trials and valleys without making a bad situation worse by succumbing to temptation and complicating the situation with sin. Scripture tells us twice in the book of Proverbs, “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Many believe that we can disregard God’s word, ignore His Spirit’s leading and are exceptions to God’s universal laws. But eventually they will discover that there is no immunity from the consequences that come from disobeying God’s word. Temptation is going to enter your life and mine this week. Let’s be ready to face it head on but remember that greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world. Dan Burrell is on hiatus for a few weeks. This article is a republication of an article which first appeared in December 2004 on this blog and through Evangelical Press News.|W|P|115133557213216924|W|P|Temptation "Happens"|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/24/2006 11:09:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|
My role as pastor provides me with a unique perspective on a variety of human traits. Among the most frustrating things in my life is the constant parade of people I observe who are quite content to live superficially, unBiblically or both even though they profess to have a real, substantive relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm reminded of Paul's concern regarding our tendency to be "hearers" rather than "doers" of the Word of God. Pastors minister via "ideals", but we constantly live in "reality" -- something upon which I'll probably elucidate further in a future entry. Sure I want folks to come to church for "good" reasons, spiritual reasons, etc... I want them to make decisions based on Bible principle, sound philosophy and good reasoning, not experience, or convenience or trendiness. But the reality of real-world living is that the vast majority of folks prefer and use the latter criteria more than the former. At the same time, God has called me to minister to "All", not just the spiritual mature or discerning. So how does a pastor reach the immature and superficial so that they can minister to them with a desire to see them become mature and substantive? That's the topic of my rant today. I recently read an article by a local religion reporter who noted that “the most heartfelt e-mails (he) receives come from folks searching for a faith home.” I would note that he writes in a paper located in a city with some seven hundred houses of worship. Several quotes from that article and comments I’ve heard or read over the years, triggered some thoughts for me on “What do people “want” from a church?” As a pastor, I am intrigued by the kinds of questions people ask of me when considering joining our church. Let me give you a sample: “What programs do you have for children?” “Are you part of a denominational association?” “What style of music do you use in your services?” “How long is your typical sermon?” “What sort of fellowship groups do you provide?” The article had some interesting comments as well: One lady said, (quote)"We do not want a church that is about `absolutes' and being `saved,' nor are we looking for a charismatic or fundamentalist church. We would like a Christian church that offers contemporary services, social gatherings and family programming." One e-mailer cited in the article suggested that (quote) “someone should put out a church guide listing everything anyone would ever want to know about a congregation, from music to ministries to dress code. If she had had such a Charlotte guide, the e-mailer said, "I wouldn't have sat in a church parking lot noting that the congregation wasn't carrying in their Bibles -- a wasted Sunday for me and a waste of time for them contacting me ..." Many pastors experience additional feedback that relates to the temperature of the auditorium, the convenience of parking, the volume of the music and the rapidity with which hospital visits are made. But all of it seems to miss the key points – what is MOST important? Not one of these individuals asked what I would consider to be a vital question. What do they use for their standard of truth? What is the basis for their faith? Does the pastor preach from Scripture or his own opinions? Will I be spiritually fed at this church? Does this church have an area in which I could be a blessing or encouragement? I pose this question, “Do we really go to church for activities and events, convenience and comfort, to have our egos stroked and our desires met?” Do we never consider that the church might need “us”? What part should each of us play in the health, growth and ministry of the church? What if people found a church and joined it with an attitude that says, “not every sermon must be for me, not every song must be “my style”, not every activity has to be one that I would join.” Instead, “Where can I serve?”, “Whom can I assist?”, “Where could my spiritual gifts be best put to use?” Churches ought to be more like families than amusement parks. Everyone should join in for the good of the family and each member realizes that it can’t always be “about them.” Some churches are struggling and an infusion of committed, positive people who are more interested in giving than taking could spark them to a renaissance. Some churches have a dearth of teachers or musicians – the addition of someone with a talent in those areas could be a blessing to the church and the pastor. So not everyone is carrying their Bible to church? How about setting the example? How about using your influence to encourage the pastor to deliver messages that challenge the people to not only bring, but USE their Bibles. The world has enough self-centered critics. No church is perfect, just like no family is perfect. Maybe it’s time we quit asking “what’s in it for us?” and start asking, “What can I do to serve?” A church shouldn’t be about attire, convenient service schedules, worship styles or personal preferences. It should be about being a called-out community of believers who are committed to using their God-given gifts for His glory and our good. Dan Burrell is on hiatus for a few weeks. This article is a republication of an article which first appeared in December 24 on this blog and through Evangelical Press News.
|W|P|115120513624264892|W|P|"Shopping" for a Church Home|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/25/2006 12:04:00 AM|W|P|Blogger J. Mark Miller|W|P|Can I get an "Amen!"?6/22/2006 10:24:00 AM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|I will admit, my role as a pastor, parent and educator provides me with a uniquely multi-faceted perspective when it comes to parenting. As a pastor, I deal with ideals, philosophy and more ethereal components of parenting as I encourage people to follow Biblical principles in rearing their children. As an educator, my focus is on the process which encompasses training, discipline and objectives. As a parent, my life is extremely real as I daily delve into the practical and sometimes most difficult aspect of parenting – personal application. I was quite the expert on parenting prior to the arrival of my four children. Now I sometimes pray that I’ll survive the experience. One of the things I’m sure of from my experience and point-of-view, parents have a definitive choice that they must make as they navigate the parenting minefield. Are we to be “liked” today or will we be “loved” tomorrow. Let’s face it – it’s a good thing that parents are not subject to recall votes or re-election schedules. I know in my case, I’d definitely be a one-termer. It frustrates me that it seems that so much of parenting time is spent saying “no” or “not yet” or explaining why I won’t let my kids camp out on the roof, stay out until late or wear that particular pair of jeans. Their responses can run the gamut from tears to anger and in the process; I often end up feeling like an ogre. I know my kids love me – sometimes I wonder if they really “like” me. It’s the parent’s dilemma. I’ve chosen to parent with the long-term in mind, not the short term. I don’t like to be unliked, but I’d rather be loved in the long-haul. My parents were often tyrannical in my opinion. There were certain people with whom I couldn’t ride in a car. I wasn’t allowed to date alone most of my teen-age years. Parties were screened and my parents checked up on me to see if I was where I had told them I would be when I went out with my friends. They weren’t afraid to tell me “no” and sometimes they couldn’t give me a reason I felt acceptable. It was their call and they were going to make it. As my dad often explained to me, as long as I put my feet under his dinner table, he got to call the shots. End of discussion. I don’t think that Oprah would have approved of his parenting technique, but I’ll tell you – in the end, I love him for it. For twenty years, I’ve caught the tears of parents who had just discovered some dark secret about their child. A pregnancy, an abortion, a drinking problem, sneaking out at night, deep-rooted resentment and other issues had emerged and now they had this tremendous sense of betrayal and failure. As I helped them work through their grief and disappointment and tried to help them develop a plan for recovery for their family, I was often struck by the reality that many of these parents had seldom established protective policies and principles for their children. On some occasions, I’ve actually had them tell me that they knew they should have been stricter or held their kids more accountable but that they were “afraid” that it creates a confrontation, that it would “hurt” their relationship with their kids or would result in conflict. So, they chose a path of less resistance and capitulated. The kids enjoyed freedoms they weren’t mature enough to appreciate and as a result, ended up in a condition that was damaging, damning or both. Sadly, for many of them the tolerable relationship with their kids for which they had compromised was simply an illusion. In the end, there was no respect, no committed love and no appreciation. They had been liked, but now they weren’t loved. Today’s culture screams permissiveness, live-for-the-moment, and relativity. But kids need an anchor, a foundation, a moral and philosophical compass and until theirs is completed, mom and dad must provide it for them. Don’t be afraid to tell your kids no. Don’t be afraid to be a bad guy today to be a good parent forever. Remember that a little pain today may indeed protect you from a lot of pain tomorrow. It’s a choice worth making. Dan Burrell is on hiatus from this blog for a time. This article was first posted on this blog in October of 2004.|W|P|115098652070154963|W|P|(Reprint) A Parent -- To be Liked or Loved?|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/20/2006 12:50:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|As I mentioned in my last blog entry, I am going to be taking a hiatus from regular fresh postings on this blog for a few weeks. I am not planning a permanent departure from the blogosphere, but I need a little bit of spiritual and intellectual refreshment. So, in the words of Peter, I plan to "go a fishing" at least figuratively. While gone, I plan on re-evaluating the purposes for this blog. It has grown dramatically each month in which I've been counting hits. I get a ton of feedback both locally and nationally and I appreciate the many who have written me privately in the last week or two asking me to continue blogging. Your words are kind and you've been a personal encouragement. Just so you'll know my heart, I'm not personally discouraged over the article written in the Sword of the Lord and to which I responded last week. Leadership involves criticism. Sadly, in ministry I have found that the deepest and most painful wounds have always come from those who claim to be on the same spiritual team as me. But that's just life -- I'm not griping, it's just what is. I am just a little bit tired. As odd as it may seem coming from someone who hangs his intellectual, spiritual and personal meanderings out in cyberspace like so much underwear on a clothesline, I really don't aspire to be some sort of "national figure" in fundamentalism. I realized years ago, that the best thing I can ever be in God's economy is a faithful husband, good father and a principled pastor. I'm not going to change the world by running all over the place speaking or writing articles. I'm going to continue speaking and writing, but as the Lord leads, not as Dan desires. In the last couple of months, some of my articles have taken on a life of their own and as a result it has brought a lot more feedback and attention than I really anticipated. In addition, I have found myself being "edgier" and "sharper" in my tone than is necessary or healthy. I believe we can and should speak clearly and directly. But we don't need to go overboard and in all honesty, some of my non-article postings have been intemperate and that's going to stop. Someone wrote me last week to remind me that "Northside Baptist Church" isn't just "any" church. For many years, it was extremely high-profile in Charlotte and around the country. It was one of the first of mega-churches, though by today's standards, it just barely meets that classification. Because of the wonderful facilities that the Lord has entrusted to us, we have hosted major conferences and events for years which have allowed hundreds of thousands to visit our campus. There are times, when I forget that the legacy we've enjoyed has brought a unique level of on-going scrutiny to our ministry. In South Florida, I ministered in relative anonymity as we were not seen as part of the "Bible belt" and many in fundamentalism tend to view the whole of Florida south of Orlando as the equivalent of a pagan mission field. Charlotte is quite a different environment and Northside is a different kind of church than what I had previously experienced. That's not a complaint -- it is what it is. In recent months, I've tried to tackle some tougher issues as I think through things in my mind. I tend to think through my fingers which only fellow writers can truly understand. As I've written about controversial topics, asked impolitic (if not impolite) questions and determined to pull the coverings off some of the moldy furniture in fundamentalism, it simply has take a little bit of a toll and I want to rejuvenate a bit. In the meantime, because so many of you have asked that I continue to post at least something in the interim, I will put up a "Best of..." article from the earliest days of this blog when I had few readers or perhaps one of my old EP News commentaries a few times each week so that you'll know that I haven't abandoned this site altogether. When I can't contain myself any longer, I'll be back and then I'll share what you can expect from this blog in the future. Thanks again for your faithful readership and the many kind words which you have shared. I'll talk to you next month sometime.|W|P|115082347237111538|W|P|I Go A Fishing (at least for a while)|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/21/2006 09:17:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Mike Hess|W|P|Dan,

Once again you have provided some good and sound advice for those of us who blog. Thank you for your humility and your willingness to do what is best for your own personal walk with the Lord.

Have a fabulous day!

Mike6/21/2006 05:29:00 PM|W|P|Blogger patrick mitchell|W|P|YOU ROCK PASTOR!!! enjoy your break and we'll all look forward to you returning to your blog. camp is going awesome by the way!6/21/2006 09:28:00 PM|W|P|Blogger mb|W|P|I have been part of Northside in a small way in the past and have seen just a glimpse of the ENORMOUS responsibility that God has put you in. You have faithfully risen to it!!!!!!!! This blog, my small connection to my "roots," will be missed.6/16/2006 01:09:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|My Response to Shelton Smith and Don Jasmin I have wavered back and forth all week as to whether or not I would make any additional public statement regarding the article published in the June edition of The Sword of the Lord regarding Northside Baptist Church. The article was commissioned by Shelton Smith, Editor of the Sword and written by Don Jasmin, who publishes a small, subscription based newsletter entitled “The Fundamentalist Digest” which is largely a critique of those whose fall outside of his definitions of Fundamentalism. In this article, it is my intention to simply refute some of the false characterizations found in the Jasmin’s report and to raise, perhaps, a few questions worthy of consideration. I will do my best to avoid making this personal. In recent weeks, I have realized that my frustration with those who loudly hold to their extreme views has caused me to adopt a “tone” that is uncharacteristic of my nature and which I do not wish to possess. Therefore, I will attempt to simply be clinical in my response. First, I am not a leader in the International Baptist Network. I whole-heartedly support the IBN. I believe it is an exciting endeavor with a Biblical agenda and I have great regard for many of those who are involved in it, spoke at the conference and are supportive of it. But I am not an officer, I have not been privy to the discussions which have organized it, I am not consulted by the leadership. I was asked if I would be willing to host the first “stand-alone” conference for the IBN. It was our privilege to do so. Previously, they had met in a combined setting with the WBF and the BBF in conjunction with a Southwide Baptist Fellowship meeting held at the Highland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga, TN. I was personally blessed by the “Global Connections Conference”. I enjoyed the music, the preaching, the fellowship and the break-out sessions. There were nearly 100 exhibitors at the conference representing a wide-range of ministries and missions opportunities. I do not know the exact number of delegates, but it was more than Don Jasmin described in his article. I believe it was a good number considering that this was the first such conference. I plan on personally being involved with several of the agencies represented at the Global Connection Conference. I made many new friends who are fundamental to the core. I heard nothing preached or taught that was anything but doctrinally fundamental. I am never in 100% agreement with anyone, but that does not negate my ability to appreciate their ministry, fellowship with them, assist them as lead by the Lord and it most certainly does not make them my enemy. I pray that the Lord will use the IBN to spread the gospel throughout the world. According to the information we received, the IBN is truly international with offices in Europe, Asia, South America and plans to expand elsewhere. The days of the United States being the only “springboard” for evangelism have ended. Today, American believers should look at linking arms with our international brothers and sisters to reach those remaining people groups around the world who have not yet heard the name of Jesus. Conservative Southern Baptists, fundamental non-Baptist churches and those who do not adhere to the narrow and questionable confines of those who practice secondary and tertiary separation are NOT the enemy. Satan is. Those who dilute and pollute the Gospel are. Those who hate the name of Jesus are. Those who deny the inerrancy of Scripture are. How long will we continue to shoot at those with whom we will be neighbors in heaven? With that, I’ll make no further comment on the IBN and its goals. Someone else can address what Jasmin wrote regarding the IBN and I hope some of the leadership within IBN will do so. At this point, I want to turn my attention to Sheldon Smith’s and Don Jasmin’s attack on the historic Northside Baptist Church of Charlotte where I pastor. First, let me say that words cannot express my disappointment in Shelton Smith. What an opportunity has been squandered. The Sword of the Lord was once, arguably, the most influential newspaper of its kind. Dr. John R. Rice used its pages to inform, educate and challenge. It was once a major influence in my life and certainly was in my family during the 1960’s. Sadly, after the death of Dr. Rice, Curtis Hutson took the newspaper in a different direction that was characterized by high-profile personal attacks on individuals. Perhaps the highest profile such attack was on Vietnam War Hero and Independent Baptist evangelist, Tim Lee. Tim, a member of the wonderful Lavon Drive Baptist Church in Garland, Texas where Gary Coleman is the pastor, fell into disfavor with Hutson because he accepted invitations to speak at conservative (inerrantist) Southern Baptist Churches and with Southern Baptist pastors and evangelists. Sadly, I remember the change of tone in the Sword of the Lord because Curtis Hutson had spoken in my church in Florida at the time and given free subscriptions to the Sword to anyone who wanted them. The first issue that our membership received was the one attacking Tim Lee who had been a frequent speaker at our church. The topic created confusion and anger among many in the church who love Tim Lee and it cast a pall over Curtis Hutson’s ministry among us. After Curtis Hutson’s death, I invited Shelton Smith to speak at my church in Florida. After the evening service, he and six members of our pastoral leadership team went to eat at the Chili’s restaurant at the corner of Okeechobee Blvd. and Military Trail in West Palm Beach. I can take you to the very booth where we sat. During our conversation, I asked Shelton what kind of tone he planned on setting in the Sword and I specifically referenced the experience I had with Curtis Hutson and Tim Lee. Shelton emphatically stated that there was a “new day” at the Sword and such attacks were not in his nature. He further emphasized that he didn’t believe the paper should be involved in local church matters and the debates that were already dividing fundamentalism at the time. He expressed a desire to build bridges with the younger pastors in fundamentalism and assured me that he would not continue in the path of personal attacks that had marked Hutson’s leadership. History has demonstrated that not only did Smith abandon the pledge he made to me in front of witnesses, but he has taken the level of vitriol to a new level. Today, the Sword of the Lord has little resemblance to the great paper it once was. Those I know who read it are those (many of whom I deeply love and respect) who seem mired in a philosophy and mentality that shaped fundamentalism in the 50s, 60s and 70s and who seem to think the methods employed during those days are not only the only effective methods, but often imply that anything other than those is somehow liberal or even unbiblical. No doubt, evangelical Christianity today is rife with unsound philosophy and methodology. But not every “new thing” is necessarily a “bad thing.” Indeed, I would suggest that some of the tactics used during those days were horrifically wrong and unbiblical. I cannot imagine encouraging attendance at church with “promotions” ranging from swallowing gold fish and worms to having cash prizes and trips offered for baptisms goals met. Such was common practice in Sword circles in those days. It was totally pragmatic and thinking leaders should be embarrassed at some of the stunts that were pulled in the name of evangelism during those days. I hold Shelton Smith personally accountable for the lies that were printed in the Sword about Northside Baptist Church. It was he, by his own admission, who requested that Don Jasmin visit the conference and file a report. It was fully possible for Jasmin to have evaluated the conference (which I still find questionable due to the obvious motives) without spending multiple paragraphs disparaging the local church which opened its facilities for the conference. It was he who failed to contact the local pastor of the church for even the courtesy of a “heads up” or to clarify that what was reported about the church was accurate. Even the most ungodly and hostile secular reporters that have reported on me over the years would give me that opportunity. What kind of ethics is this? I would ask the pastors who read this blog to consider whether or not they would appreciate someone coming into your ministry who already has a natural (even principled) bias against you for the purpose of “investigating” what is going on as your flock worships. Have we come to a day when Sheldon Smith and Don Jasmin and others will start running “reviews” of churches like the New York Times or the Washington Post does with restaurants? Have we honestly sunk to this level? What possible Biblical justification can one have for invading the sanctity and autonomy of a local church in such a manner? It is just shocking. I have been an Independent Baptist for forty years. One of the reasons I am and intend on remaining an Independent Baptist is my belief in the autonomy of the local church. It is a major Baptist distinctive. What Shelton Smith and Don Jasmin have done is to violate that principle in a most offensive and egregious way. Now, I will address the allegations and mischaracterizations of Don Jasmin’s report. I do so, not in an interest of defending myself. I am who I am and I make no apologies for that. However, I believe he maliciously maligned some of the sweetest, most dedicated people in the Kingdom whom I love very much – the members and servants who make up Northside Baptist Church. Jasmin begins by accusing Northside of “adopting unwholesome programs and practices that are changing the spiritual direction the church is traveling.” He cites, as Exhibit A, the presence of a tract written by Ray Comfort. He openly states that he has no problem with the content of the tract, but with the author. I must confess that my first thought upon reading this was, what in the world problem could he have with “Ron” Comfort? Then I looked again to see it was “Ray” Comfort. I will confess to you that I’ve never in my life heard of “Ray Comfort” until now. Jasmin goes on to connect Comfort to people like Franklin Graham, Bill Gothard, Josh McDowell and others and suggests that people who might accept Christ or contact the tiny little address on the back of the tract will be lead into the clutches of the “New Evangelicals.” I went on to visit Ray Comfort’s website to discover that he is indeed an evangelical evangelist of some note. One of his protégés is a man by the name of “Kirk Cameron” who starred in the sitcom, “Growing Pains.” Cameron accepted Christ and is now Hollywood’s leading Christian voice. I watched his testimony and his presentation of the Gospel on his website and all I can say is “WOW.” May his tribe increase! What a clear and concise presentation of God’s plan for redemption. And this guy is supposed to be our enemy? I think not. I pray that the Lord will use me to reach others for Christ the way he is obviously using Cameron and Comfort. But I would note, we have tracts from a variety of sources both fundamental and evangelical. I minister in the birthplace of Billy Graham and the headquarters of the BGEA. Franklin Graham is the highest profile gospel representative in this city apart from his father. Do you think a Charlottean is more likely to read a tract explaining the gospel written by Franklin Graham or Don Jasmin? There are multiple people in our congregation who were saved because of the ministry of the BGEA. Do I have problems with some of Dr. Graham’s associations and philosophy? Sure I do. (I would say that Franklin is a different man than is his father.) But again, that does not make him my enemy. I rejoice in every soul that is genuinely converted because of a tract published by those whom Jasmin would dismiss as “new evangelical.” In all honesty, we have hundreds of pieces of literature available for use by our church. I do not research the pedigree of every single author and with whom they hang out. But if I did, I’d get Comfort’s tracts all over again. But doesn’t this seem trivial to anyone other than me? Next he attacks our “Celebration worship” service which he claims is a term “coined by the charismatics and New Evangelical advocates of the “new wineskin” concept.” With all due respect, I did not borrow that term from anyone. Indeed there is no new thing under the sun and others may have used it before I did, but that’s not a problem. I’m not of the opinion that every semantical expression used by a charismatic or new evangelical is verboten. Jasmin maligns us further by innuendo when he says, “I have no evidence that NBC employs ‘creative dance’ in its ‘worship celebration,’ but this is the direction in which this church and others like it are eventually heading." Apparently Jasmin has prophetic gifts. I can’t envision the circumstances in which I would employ “creative dance” (whatever that might be) in my services. If I ever were to be inclined to do so, I’ll do some additional study into the life of King David who apparently did not have a problem with it. Jasmin further insinuates, “Due to an obvious huge attendance loss, the adults meet on Sunday evenings in the smaller Jack Hudson Chapel where a ‘power walk’ Bible study is conducted in place of the formerly strong preaching emphasis.” I just don’t know how to respond to this in other way except to say that it is a lie. Plan and simple. It is not accurate in any way, shape or form. In September of 2005, we “swapped” what we had previously done on Wednesday nights with what we do on Sunday nights. It had nothing whatsoever to do with an “attendance loss”. (For the record, the average attendance of Northside Baptist Church is greater in 2006 than it was in 1999 before I became pastor, but is everything really supposed to be about numbers?) On Sunday evenings, for a variety of reasons which are, quite frankly none of Jasmin’s business, we offer a wide variety of small studies on our campus in addition to the traditional Sunday evening service we have in the Hudson Chapel. I often speak in the Hudson Chapel service. In it we have congregational singing from hymnals, announcements, an offering, a special and a 45-55 minutes expositional sermon from the King James Bible. Might I ask why that is a problem with Mr. Jasmin? Generally, there are 100-200 in that service. It makes sense to hold the service in the chapel because our auditorium was built to seat 3,500. BUT, in addition to that service all across our campus, between 300-500 other folks are attending or working in AWANAS, attending powerwalk classes ranging from the video series Jasmin mentioned entitled “Growing Up Boys” by James Dobson and including a Bible study for ladies conducted by my wife, financial management classes for those who struggle handling money and learning Biblical stewardship, personal discipleship, a study on prayer with extended prayer time included, a teen worship and discipleship service, a college and career aged Bible study and fellowship and many other “rotating” classes which we use for training and discipleship. Many, if not most, of these classes meet for 6-12 weeks and people go in and out of them or they may attend the expositional sermon in the Hudson Chapel. In addition, our deacons go out on visitation on Sunday evenings visiting in the homes of all those who visited in our services on Sunday morning. We do not even want the sun to go down before a visitor of our church has a personal, at the door, visit from someone who can lead them to Christ. On Wednesday night, we have what we call our WOW service. WOW stands for Worship on Wednesday. We begin at 5:30 with a tremendous family meal in our fine arts center. From 6:00-6:20, we invite folks into the main auditorium for prayer. At 6:30, we have a one-hour, compact service that includes about 20-25 minutes of praise and worship and a 35-minute expositional Bible study. Currently, I am teaching expositionally through a series of passages that deal with the work of the Holy Spirit. It’s substantive and one of the favorite services of the week. Again, we have hundreds of folks join us for that service and I would note that we have three or four children’s choirs that meet while that service is going on. We dismiss promptly at 7:30 which allows families with school-aged children to get them home and in bed at a decent hour. Our folks appreciate the consideration to today’s version of the family schedule and I’m happy to accommodate them. Somewhere in my reading of Scripture, I missed the passages that command us to meet at set hours, in set places for a set order of service. But then again, is that not the privilege of the local, autonomous church? Exhibit C in Jasmin’s article is a brochure he picked up describing our small group Bible Fellowships. (Sometimes known as Sunday school classes.) Again, he goes into a lengthy diatribe on how these things are supposedly run and their suspect origins. Seriously, I just can’t comprehend how trivial, not to mention misinformed, he is. Until Elmer Towns’ emphasis of the “master teacher concept” in the 1960’s, many, if not most, churches used small group Sunday school formats. This is a throwback to the Southern Baptists who built huge churches for years doing this. Our teachers are indeed TEACHERS. They use a curriculum. Our classes range in size from 10 to 100. I believe we have somewhere around 75 Bible study teachers across the campus. Some are single-gendered and others are couples classes. We don’t call them “huddles” as Jasmin alleges. Our groups are mostly age divided, not “intergenerational” as Jasmin suggested. They do not replace graded worship services at any level. What is this man talking about? He states that “In all this buzz of flurried activity, preaching is de-emphasized and short sermonettes take their place.” That’s simply a lie. My services are on the internet LIVE. You can watch my sermons for several weeks afterwards on the Internet. I often preach 45-50 minutes at a clip. I am an expository preacher. Anyone can see it for themselves. Didn’t Jasmin bother to check any of this out before linking us with whatever it is he’s talking about? I firmly believe in the primacy of preaching and teaching the whole counsel of God from the pulpit. My members would laugh at the suggestions that I preach sermonettes, short sermons or watered-down messages. If you would like a copy of one of my sermons, I will send it to you free if you will email me. How can he, in good conscience make such a suggestion based on one phrase in a brochure that helps people find a Sunday school class? He goes on to call into question our “Studio Kids” children’s church. Indeed, we have games, songs, skits and teaching. Must we give it a boring name in order for it to be Biblical? We use a “TV studio” backdrop. But in the 60’s and 70’s, I worked in children’s churches that used “barn” backdrops, “alley” backdrops and “street” backdrops. What’s the big deal? For the record, our Children’s Ministry Pastor is a graduate of Pensacola Christian College. We use terms like “huddles” and “coaches” in this setting as a way of identifying class time and the teachers. Again, is there something sacred about using terms like “class” and “teacher” or could we possibly have a little fun? The “two-minute warning” by the children’s pastor that Jasmin references is the final review of the day’s theme, verse and principle so that when the kids leave “Studio Kids” and their parents ask them “What did you learn today?”, it’s fresh on their minds. Is that some sort of New Evangelical tactic that I missed? Someone please tell me why I’m having to justify these practices of an Independent Autonomous local Baptist church this way? Next Jasmin takes on our music. OK, smack me all over the place on this one if you want to do so. Yep, we use “Praise and Worship” music. We have drums in our orchestra (along with 20-some other instruments). Let me shock you further, we sometimes clap along with and after the music. Some folks raise their hands when we sing about presenting ourselves to the Lord as a sign of submission and yieldness. (Here’s something scandalous --- sometimes I do too!) You see, I grew up in an age (the 1960’s) when I remember being in Baptist revival meetings when people clapped, raised their hands and even waved the occasional “hankie”. I’ve even heard people shout “Amen” and “Praise the Lord.” The horror of it! Just because the Charismatics started doing it, doesn’t mean that I have to quit doing it. How about this….do a search in Scripture on all the times that hand-raising is mentioned. Then, please leave me alone about the topic. Many of our songs are scripture set to music. Only a person with a perverted mind would call anything that goes on in our worship services “sensual.” Jasmin goes on to describe some of the music during the conference as sounding like a “nightclub.” Well, Mr. Jasmin, I’ve never been in a nightclub, not even once. So I’ll just have to defer to your knowledge of the topic, but somehow, I can’t imagine a lounge singer singing “He is Exalted.” Let me state this clearly, I do not buy into the music philosophy that says one cannot use praise choruses, percussion, personal expression, hold a mike, use CD accompaniment, raise your hands, clap or in any way physically express worship. I didn’t believe it or practice it in my church in Florida. I told the folks at Northside before they called me to be pastor that I didn’t. My church in Florida had 36 different nationalities in it on a typical Sunday. The folks from Latin America would sway and raise their hands. The folks from Jamaica would smile and clap timidly. The folks from Europe would sometimes pray outloud while I lead in prayer. The folks from East Asia were generally fairly reserved. The folks from Bob Jones University would stand with their hands in their pocket in case they got carried away. But in the end, no one CARED how the person next to them was expressing their worship because WE WEREN’T the AUDIENCE. HE is. Do some in my church prefer the old hymns and gospel songs? Sure. I’m one of them. We have a separate service just for those. We sing hymns, accompanied by a piano and organ and folks can use the hymnals. I never need to because I know the songs by heart. If that floats your boat, then that’s the service to attend. I preach just as hard and the exact same sermon to both services. Interestingly, roughly 80% of our folks prefer the “Celebration Service”. That’s OK. Either way, I just love preaching to these great folks. Later on, he refers to pants on ladies (something that Northside has never taken a position against), suggests that some of the women were immodest and used the word “gyrate” to describe the motions of the singers. Yes, some of our ladies wear slacks. I do not believe that scripture forbids the wearing of slacks for ladies nor did Dr. Jack Hudson, our founder. It’s not an issue at our church and never has been. We have standards for dress that include modesty, propriety and identity. If there’s a problem, we address it. Mr. Jasmin might not like it, but that’s who we are. I move when I preach. I do not stay in one place. I have absolutely no problem at all with our singers using appropriate physical motion as they sing. So he does. When he pastors a church, he can have them stand straight as a rod if he wants. Again, why is this a big deal in a local, autonomous church? The term “gyrate” means: To revolve around a fixed point or axis. To move in spiral or spiral-like course. I’ve never seen that happen. Ever. He makes it sound like the singers during the conference were doing something vulgar. He should be ashamed to characterize them in such a way. Ashamed. The special group to which he alludes is called “Wings” and is sent out from First Baptist Church of Woodstock, GA. Several of the singers in that group grew up in Independent Baptist churches that have advertised in the Sword of the Lord, by the way. Music has been the most divisive issue in fundamentalism in many years. The controversy is not going away. Like predestination, election and foreknowledge, it will continue to be debated in the future. Can we not leave it up to the local church? Is that not the Biblical way? I have absolutely no problem with people who would never use any contemporary music at all. I can worship in their church, appreciate their fellowship and never have a negative thought cross my mind. I would never purposefully offend others with my liberty in this area. I am not an enemy of tradition, the hymns or the gospel songs. They are deeply engrained in my heritage. But I refuse to be held hostage by tradition and by those who elevate tradition to the point of doctrine. This argument logically extrapolates into a form of subliminal racism or at least, western bias, which would demand every Latin church, every African or African-American church, every Asian church, every remote village tribe to adopt a style of music that is purely Western, American and fundamentalist at that. I’m sorry. I travel too much to buy into that. I’ve watched choirs march into worship clapping their hands and playing drums in Kenya prior to a powerful Gospel sermon. I’ve sat with Indians (Asian branch) who raised their hands and some got up and danced in sound, Bible preaching churches. I’ve stood against the wall as Cuban believers, meeting undercover, shouted and clapped and played tambourines and raised their hands in jubilation over their freedom in Christ. I must tell you, in each case, I was part of sweet, Biblical, worship. Was I out of place? As surely as a nun in a tattoo parlor. Was it a privilege to be there? Without a doubt. Seriously, it’s time to call a truce in the worship wars, to give each other the benefit of the doubt, to quit condemning others and to leave this up to the local churches. Finally, Jasmin spends a LOT of time criticizing us for having Tim Lee speak for us. Tim Lee has spoken at Northside many times. He is a personal friend and a friend of our ministry. He is a friend to Dr. Bradley Price who preceded me and was to Dr. Jack Hudson who preceded him. I’d far rather be identified with Tim Lee, a true hero and authentic fundamentalist with a tremendous passion for reach the lost, than someone who would sneak into a church and write a false report. Tim Lee can defend himself and he doesn’t need me to do it for him. I just want to state for the record that I love Tim Lee and he is welcome in our church or my home anytime. I have written Jasmin twice asking him to send me his number. He can surely find my number. He has not responded at all. I’m not really surprised. I’m just disappointed. Disappointed that I have to take an hour out of my life and write this rebuttal. Disappointed that The Sword of the Lord has squandered its position in Christianity to speak up for the Truth and to challenge a new generation to fulfill the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. Disappointed that apparently, there is a new day in so-called Christian journalism which has placed the sanctity of the local church under attack. Disappointed that while we are engaged in all this mess, souls are still dying without Christ and Christians are in need of discipleship. Indeed, this and other things have caused me to reconsider several things in my life. I plan on taking a hiatus from this blog for a time. I’ll give more details in a later posting. I pray that Shelton Smith and Don Jasmin will repent of the attack they have made on good people and a good church. I believe they owe their church an apology. Recently, I wrote a very clear, unequivocal apology to someone I had offended with unnecessarily heated rhetoric. We all blow it sometimes and when we do, we should just stand up and admit it, get forgiveness and move on. Interestingly, probably fewer than the number of fingers on one of my hands in our church read the Sword or even know about the Sword. It has caused no controversy at all in our fellowship. I am grateful to the Lord in leading me to a decision some time to go to avoid those who cause strife and division in local churches. I close with these verses in Galatians 2:4-6: And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me. KVJ If you would like to contact Shelton Smith with your thoughts on Jasmin's article, he can be emailed at Editorial@SwordoftheLord.com.|W|P|115047845184243547|W|P|In Which I Respond to the Sword of the Lord|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/16/2006 03:50:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Nephos|W|P|I don't and haven't read the "Sword", so this is the first I've heard of this article. It doesn't surprise me, but it (along with other such diatribes) continue to disappoint me.

This branch of fundamentalism is going to canibalize themselves into extinction. Such biased, unfounded, and thoughtless attacks will ultimately destroy the few who are left.

God bless you and the family of believers at Northside.6/16/2006 10:05:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Kim|W|P|This certainly took much out of you to write, but I am glad you did it. Thanks for defending Northside. Thanks for taking that hour out of your life, as hard and painful as it must have been. God is the ultimate and perfect judge and He knows the hearts. Rest in that.6/16/2006 10:36:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Mike Hess|W|P|Dan,

Great post! The Sword had a great impact as well on me when I was a very young believer and it has been sad and disappointing to see the venemous direction that Shelton Smith has taken with the SOTL. The SOTL has become nothing more than another publication that represents hysteric fundamentalism that is against so many things that it does not know what it is for anymore.

Also, I think it would be high time to tell Jasmin to "get a life". When one has nothing better to do than to visit so called "compromising" churches to write a critique before having the courtesy to even call the pastor of that church it has become evident that this particular person is missing the boat in regards to their calling to preach the gospel. Keep up the good work!

Mike6/17/2006 12:22:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Pastor Leo|W|P|I have also been disappointed by the direction and tone of the SOTL. I was a member of Forrest Hills when Curtis Hutson was there. I attended BUA when he was the president there. Sadly, I observed a change in him when he went to the SOTL. He wasn't the same, humble "Bro. Curtis" that we knew as students.
The SOTL is not the same paper it was under Dr. Rice. I suppose it's true, "Things that are different are not the same".
It has always stuck me as a bit hypocritical for people to strongly promote the autonomy of the local church while at the same time imposing the strongest form of peer pressure. I have known men in the pastorate who were afraid to do anything different in their ministries for fear of what Greenville, Chattanooga, or Murfreesboro might think.
I agree with you that the SOTL should have contacted you about the article (if out of nothing more than common Christian courtesy) before publication. The same thing happened when Jones and then Hutson attacked MacArthur. Tehy were blindsided attacks with no corroborative facts. I would have thought the better of them. I do remember, however, reading a few months ago a scathing rip of BBN and Lowell Davey on this blog. I asked the folks at BBN if you had spoken to them first. Guess what?
Now I know the blogesphere is not the same as journalism and it is more personal commentary, but you did say some harsh things about a brother in Christ without any personal confrontation (as far as I could determine). If you tried, then I humbly retract my comment here.
I agree with your comments about Ray Comfort. I heard Kirk Cameron preach once and he gave a clear and passionate salvation message. That ministry is one that God is using.

The SOTL will continue to marginalize itself until no one cares what they say. The younger generation fundamentalist thinks for himself and does not need to be told what to believe and is, I think, distancing himself from the hypocrisies of the past. May their tribe increase.6/17/2006 01:57:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Jeremiah Halstead|W|P|Nice. I'll have to find the "Sword" and see exactly what it says for my own amusment. Though I think the sermonette comment was rather funny... as I havn't seen such in the past six months :)6/17/2006 02:08:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Thomas Pryde|W|P|Hey Dan...
You know you've made the big time when you get preached against! Hang in there and keep preaching and writing the truth. It'll rile both sides...lol...6/17/2006 06:09:00 PM|W|P|Blogger The Scriptural Truth|W|P|Dan,

I'm glad that you responded.

Good post.

Rodney Queen6/17/2006 11:41:00 PM|W|P|Blogger patrick mitchell|W|P|i'm glad you decided to write this. too bad they'll probably never change their minds about anything.
Basically the sotl is a joke! i worked in the bush in Botswana for a while and the place i lived had no plumbing and no toilet paper. so...we used issues of the "sword of the Lord" that were sent to them free! THAT is what this newspaper is good for = toilet paper! the college i went to tried to give them to us free to read (there were always hundreds sitting around that no one wanted). my friends and i always grabbed one in case toilet paper became scarce during a hurricane.

the sotl are very unethical and "spying" is very common within this brand of fundamentalism.
and don't worry about any accusations of being "new evangelical" by these guys...anybody who doesn't use hymnals, wears pants, eats lunch with nonbaptists, or does ANYTHING different than they do are dubbed "new evangelical". they have no idea what the term means.

you hit the nail on the head when you said these people "elevate tradition to the point of doctrine"...their tradition IS their doctrine.
you're right too that no one really reads this paper...and it's kind of interesting that it looks exactly the same as it did 40 years ago.

don't let these guys bother you one bit...we just have to biblically separate from people like this who are causing division in the church.

i'm sad to hear you're taking a hiatus from your blog...i know myself and many will miss reading your stuff. hope you'll be back before long...but you deserve the break. thanks for always challenging us with your thoughts!

patrick6/19/2006 01:22:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Let me respond to you, Slowwitted (btw, that is your "handle" and not my opinion) and Pastor Leo further up in the response thread regarding an implication that I was getting my just desserts from the SOTL for an article I had written a few months ago regarding BBN.

I believer there are several differences....

First, BBN is not a church. Northside Baptist Church is. Northside is supported by its tithing members. BBN is supported by listeners who appreciate their program, philosophy, and so on. Northside is an institution founded by God (one of three -- home, civil government and church). Radio stations are private enterprises and BBN is not church affiliated.

As I stated in my blog, I have far less of a problem with Smith and Jasmin reporting on a "Conference" than I do a local church. That is an ethical line. It is comparative to someone reporting on the President's conduct and the conduct of his children. There has always been a wall of respect in journalism that says that a President is fair gain, but you let his children have privacy. This isn't an issue of privacy, but of respect.

Secondly, Lowell Davey very publicly announced his position in a letter to his constituents AND by publishing a "private" letter he had written to David Jeremiah. In one of those letters, again, he violated the autonomy of the local church by connecting his decision to drop Turning Point with the music in his church and to his Worship Pastor. He could have simply dropped Turning Point without comment or with minimal justification as in "differences in philosophy" or a "management decision", but no....he unloaded the whole truck. David Jeremiah does not have access to Lowell's database to defend himself, Turning Point or Shadow Mountain against the charges. Lowell was clearly "making his point" by making it publicly and giving it the widest possible distribution as possible. My article regarding BBN/Davey was a defense of a good man and it exposed the hyprocisy of the man who made the decision. He made it public. I simply responded in defense of a brother.

I, on the other hand, pastor an Independent autonomous congregation of people mature and immature. Some of our folks are yet to be converted. Others have private struggled. I have never even mentioned the SOTL from our pulpit, let along attacked them. Our folks have no idea who the "big names" in IFBX fundamentalism are and I keep it that way purposefully so that their controversies do not infect our body. Yet, in our relative anonymity, Smith and Jasmin, have lifted our church to the front page of their paper and picked it apart inaccurately and without even the graciousness of a notification or a chance for the NBC leadership to respond. There simply is no comparison between the two situations.

Finally, I know journalism. If I chose to engage in it, I could. I am a commentator. It is a side interest of mine. I am a syndicated commentator and columnist for Evangelical Press News. I do not do investigative journalism.

Jasmin and Smith claim to be journalists. But any Journalism 101 student can tell you that they violated MULTIPLE rules of journalism. Should not a Christian tabloid at least keep the same low standards that the secular world does?

Thanks for reading and commenting. You probably asked outloud what others might have been thinking.

Dan

BTW...Dimwitted, the post that shows that it was deleted was simply a duplicate of your initial post. I haven't edited any posts on this comment thread because they disagreed with me.

In the end, we have the 1st Amendment and I believe it to be a vital part of our American way of life.6/20/2006 12:34:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Hi Tina,

FIRST, let me apologize to "Halfwitted" for accidentally calling him "Dimwitted" at the end of my blog response to him. Apparently, "Halfwitted" might be his handle, but it is my state, because I couldn't even remember his correct "handle" to the end of my response. My sincere regrets...I truly wasn't trying to be smart towards him at all. (I tried to figure out how to edit the entry in order to correct it, but if there's a way to do so, I couldn't find it.)

Secondly, I understand what you are saying and as I stated in my blog, I thought long and hard about whether or not to respond at all. And as I stated, I did so in defense of the good people that make up the church and to correct misperceptions about our ministry.

As one private correspondent shared with me, Northside isn't just "any" church, but one that has, for better or worse, been in the spotlight of fundamentalism for many years. Frequently, I fail to recognize or remember the impact that has. In this case, I don't want the hundreds of other pastors and churches, who are authentic fundamentalists but who don't always "toe the line" as to style issue or on particular traditions, to be discouraged by the article. I also quite clearly, felt like the poor journalism and ethics demonstrated in the article, should be exposed for what they are. I believe the article was malicious and dishonest at best. I chose to try and respond without anger, but in a way that also communicated that I'll not lies stand as if they are truth, nor will I be bullied or intimidated into either silence or doing things "their" way just to gain their approval.

But in the end, each person must draw their own conclusion. I know we "spar" from time to time, Tina and that's fine. Good dialogue and the occasional sparring much is what sharpens us and sometimes changes us.

We're both rather opinionated which only adds to the drama. ;-)

Best to you and your family!

Dan6/20/2006 01:36:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Bob M|W|P|Dan,
Thank you for your comments on the Sword of the Lord article. I just got a copy and read it and the second part will be printed on June 16. I have yet to see that. Our church has gone the gamut from strict IFB to biblically based truth seeking, Christ-exalting worshippers of God through Jesus Christ.

It is totally refreshing to see someone older than me trumpeting this horn, (I'm 42). Chuck Wood does not pastor anymore, but if he were, they'd be lambasting him.

Your point was excellent, that they practice a "subliminal racism or at least, western bias, which would demand every Latin church, every African or African-American church, every Asian church, every remote village tribe to adopt a style of music that is purely Western, American and fundamentalist at that... Seriously, it’s time to call a truce in the worship wars, to give each other the benefit of the doubt, to quit condemning others and to leave this up to the local churches.

To me it is rampant racism. Here in Minneapolsi, there is a movement to take the church back to the middle ages, using European worship styles as the ONLY truly God-honoring music in history. That is truly racist and eurocentric.6/20/2006 06:25:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Pastor Leo|W|P|FreedomfromBondage wrote: "There is no BIBLICAL place for BBN to judge a local church...period!"

Leaving the method and content of Mr. Davey's comments aside for now, I wonder why you would say this? Chapter and verse? Is there no place for evaluating what churches do? Is this reserved for just an exalted few? Only other pastors? I'm just trying to understand the logic of this comment.6/22/2006 11:07:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Slowwitted, (Hey, can I have some points for FINALLY getting your moniker right? I must really have a mental block on that.)

Obviously we just simply disagree on this issue. I have regrets for some things I've said publicly -- mostly on internet forums rather than here -- and I've tried to humbly deal with that and continue to do so.

However, I do believe publicly refuting publicly made statements that are false or misleading are entirely appropriate. As I stated repeatedly in my response to Davey's articles, he has EVERY right to have whatever music he wants on his stations and I'm confident that MANY people thoroughly appreciate and enjoy it. My issue was not with the style. It was his hypocritical rationale and the impugning of Dr. Jeremiah's ministry that frustrated me.

So we'll agree to disagree and I'll try to do so agreeable.

Sincerely....Dan6/22/2006 04:27:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Pastor Leo|W|P|For GoNavyBeatArmy: I like your moniker and hope they do.

Just a few random observations. Like yourself, I was saved out of a very strict RCC background. I have definitely seen the "pope" senario in fundamental circles but my expericence has been that these were mostly (not all) pastors who, like you said, tried to play the role of the Holy Spirit. Sadly, the IFB movement is still feeling the effects of this. While some "para-church" organizations have their problems (just like our churches do), the local church owes much to these types of ministries.
Consider Christian camps, schools and colleges, print ministries, book publishers (where'd those hymn books come from? not to mention the folks who write and arrange music today), missions boards, and etc. On a very personal note, I was called to the ministry while sitting in my truck listening to J. Vernon McGee on my lunch hour back in 1976. There is a man in our church who gave his heart to Christ after hearing Greg Laurie on the radio. God has used these ministries greatly. If you were to remove from your church all the helps and tools provided by what you call "para-church" ministires, you'd (we'd all) be quite challenged to continue our ministires as they are. The truth be told, many of these organizations were founded by people who saw an important need that the local church was not meeting. Let's be careful not to write them off because they are not affiliated organizationally with some local church. I was a part of one these organizations for over 20 years. We required our staff to be active members of good local churches. Most of the members of the upper level leadership team were Bible college graduates, ordained ministers, and former pastors themselves. Our sensitivity for doctrinal purity was strong. So, let's not be guilty of unfair generalizations. Are there some bad apples out there? Sure. Are they all somehow out of God's will because they are not run by some local church? No way.
As far the attacks go, I'd like to see ALL follow the Biblical process of personal confrontation when there has been an offence. Many good people have been publically slandered due to misunderstandings that could have been cleared up with a few questions. The Biblical model safeguards us against the opinions of a single individual for it requires witnesses if the personal confrontation does not bring about a satisfactory resolution.
However, this is not to say that once the facts have been established that we should not expose doctrinal error. Paul was plain spoken about Alexander and Hymanaeus. But mostly our rants tend to be on a lower level, about personal preferences and matters of tastes and style. I feel the debate is helpful but unless it is done in a way that edifies and honors God, it accomplishes little.

Ok, so much for the ramblings of someone whom no one really cares about what he thinks anyway. Go Navy!6/14/2006 04:27:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|Note - this is an edited version of a memo that was sent to our staff and children's ministry workers at Northside Baptist Church. At some level, I guess I consider myself a Wordsmith. I love words. New words, fancy words, words that are so narrow and accurate that they can be position like individual pins capable of provoking exact responses, broad sweeping words that paint splashes of color like tempera thrown on a blank wall. I will not claim to always use my words precisely. I have been known to use my words carelessly. I’ve watched my words cause pain and at other times leave wrong impressions. Words are the very currency of communication. Because of that, I’d like to ask our team to consider a particular issue…. It actually involves a phrase that is older than I am. When I was a kid, we would sing a little ditty that I think was popular among those who worked with Child Evangelism Fellowship. It was called, “Into My Heart.” It went something like this…. Into my heart. Into my heart. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus. Come in I pray, come in to stay, Come into my heart, Lord Jesus. A catchy little song and obviously well-crafted enough that I still remember it after forty years. There’s just one problem. Where in the Bible are we commanded to ask “Jesus into our heart” for salvation? Sure, there are illustrations and allusions. We know that Romans 10:9-10 speaks of the “heart” when it says, “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” But we also know that “the heart” as used here is considered the seat of knowledge and will. It’s not literally our “heart” that is being referenced. Anyone who works with children will tell you that the discernment part of the brain develops incrementally over time and that the typical elementary aged children may be very inclined to think of literal terms when we use the terminology of “asking Jesus into our hearts” or at best, may think of salvation as something akin to inviting someone in through a door. (How many of us can remember that picture in the back of most of the Bibles we carried as a kid that features “Jesus” standing outside a door gently tapping wanting to be let in? This is based on Revelations 3:20 and really isn’t even an accurate illustration or representation of Salvation.) Salvation indeed involves a surrender of the will which causes us to give our “heart” to Christ. But Scripture also speaks of recognizing our sins, repentance and acknowledging Christ as the Resurrected Son of God, Lord and Redeemer. Thus, I believe that the phrase “Asking Jesus into your heart” may be a confusing, incomplete over-simplification of genuine conversion that can at best confuse children and at worse, lead them to a false sense of salvation. We must be careful to avoid Christian “jargon” with which we may be familiar, but which may be unfamiliar or confusing to non-Christ followers or those too immature to understand the terms. Another example would be the word “Saved.” My fifteen-year-old daughter came home after helping with VBS recently and commented that at the end of their teaching time, the kids were asked to tell about when they got saved. One little girl gave a long convoluted story about how her brother was picking on her and then her mom came in an stopped him and she was “SAVED!” Well, that’s a cute anecdote, but it is also an example of how we need to be careful that we use accurate terms, relevant terms, explained terms, culturally and generationally up-to-date and precise terms. Please join me in avoiding terms that might be confusing to our kids and let’s make sure that we chose the words we use carefully and wisely when explaining the Gospel.|W|P|115031742331768102|W|P|A Phrase that Might Mislead|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/14/2006 07:56:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Matthew Woodside|W|P|You are right on with this. As a pastor and the parent of two boys, ages eight and six, I am very careful with using biblical terminology to express biblical concepts. While there is some merit in explaining things in age appropriate ways, that never precludes avoiding biblical terms or softening them. As parents and as pastors, we have to remember that the Holy Spirit is in charge of saving individuals, be they congregants or our own flesh and blood. With anybody that makes a profession of faith in our congregation they are made aware of sin,righteousness,repentance,faith justification and other biblical terms involving salvation, no matter how old they are. If they are not able on some level to grasp these biblical concepts, then most likely they are not ready to follow Christ in salvation. They need more time and more instruction so that they can have more knowlegde which will hopefully lead them to true faith and repentance. Then Christ will dwell (live) in their heart and they will be saved.6/14/2006 11:31:00 PM|W|P|Blogger mb|W|P|Interesting. My son is five and on the verge of "getting saved." The conversation I had with him on the way to summer camp this morning was this: Dad, I really want to ask Jesus into my heart. I asked him already, but He didn't come. I've asked Him several times, but He's not in my heart. I sat there for a moment thinking this coversation could be a pivotal moment in sharing the gospel with him. What could I say to my son. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... I sat there thinking to myself. In my experiences of teaching children for over 15 years, I usually have the ability to cut something up into small enough chunks that they could easily digest...........I had no answer for my son realizing that it is the Holy Spirit that dwells in us when we accept Christ. I tried to go back to the basics of why we need to get "saved." I was talking to him about the numerous sins he had committed recently. Then I asked my son why do you need Jesus in your heart. So I can go to heaven, he responded. OK....... Now what??? I pondered on a great book I've been reading by Ray Comfort titled, "HELL'S Best Kept Secret." Comfort talks about how pastors are giving invitations on how inviting Jesus into your heart will give you peace and comfort and change your life forever. While that statement is not necessarily false, people come forward with the hopes of making their life better. Who wouldn't want to sign up??? Comfort goes on to point out that these people are the ones walking away from church at the first crisis they face in their life. They become disillusioned very quickly. Here's my point: if we don't realize that we must first realize how sinful we are and that we have a tremendous need to repent and be saved the we see people walking away from churches every week, because the promises at the "invitation" time didn't come true.6/15/2006 12:10:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Matthew Woodside|W|P|mike in bartlett:

Thanks for your words. My six year old is in much of the same position as far as "getting saved." He has prayed to receive Christ, but his struggle is comprehending sin and that he is a sinner.
It is difficult for him to understand that he needs to repent of sin. I mean what has a six year old done from which he needs to repent? Lying, htting his brother, not obeying parents, all those things are expressions of sin. But his struggle is like many other kids; they are rarely taught that they are to the very core of who they are sinners. Sinners by nature, by birth, by virtue that they are Adam's offspring as well as the choices they make. Pastors and parents have a big hurdle to overcome in teaching their kids the doctrine of sin. Humanisitc philosophy pushes the cult of self esteem, churches promote "the age of accountability (whatever that might be?)", and in other cases kids get a very shallow presentation of the gospel. Psalm 51:5 explains it best: "Behold,I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." My comfort for my son's salvation is rooted in knowing that God will in His time enable my son to understand the true meaning of sin thus producing faith and repentance.6/16/2006 09:27:00 PM|W|P|Blogger patrick mitchell|W|P|right on Pastor6/19/2006 08:23:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Matthew Woodside|W|P|in response to venturesum:

thank you for the humble and gracious way you provided your comment.

I think there is wisdom in the way you are cautious, but I believe there is also some biblical error in taking that approach.

Salvation has to be looked at from two perspectives. Eternal and temporal. God, in His perfect wisdom sees the eternal. We, in our finite wisdom, see the temporal. The Bible speaks of salvation in terms of election, predestination when it speaks of God's work in the past; it speaks of faith, repentance, belief, trust, commitment when it adresses matters pertaining to the present, and it speaks of glorification, perfection, maturity when it adresses matters in the future.

I think the danger with telling our kids that they are safe until a certain age, is that is doesn't take into consideration that we are condemned already because of our sin. We do not grow into condemnation with age, we are condemned already (John 3:16-18).

Different denominations handle this idea of original sin or imputed guilt differently. Some baptize infants, some preach confirmation and then others preach an age of accountability. All three, I believe, are incorrect. Baptists have long been adamantly against infant baptism; Baptist doctrine advocates baptizing believers only. These believers are to have a genuine faith in Christ and to have repented from their sins. I think that you are right to be cautious in wanting your kids to understand the gospel before they commit their lives to Christ. But I think that the error lies in not presenting the gospel as soon as possible to the point that they are made aware that they are sinners and are separated from God and under His condemnation.

As far as telling your kids that "Jesus is already in their hearts," I suppose you could call that view common grace. God sustains and takes care of all people as all men are created in His image. But, this does not preclude them from being under God's wrath because of their sin.

I hope this leaves you with some encouragement: God has given you a wonderful privilege and responsibility to communicate God's salvation to your kids. As soon as possible, they have to be made aware of their sin and that it offends God. God offers forgiveness, no matter what age the child may be, if they repent and believe the gospel. This may be at six, eight, sixteen or whenever. But here's the catch, and here's where I think you are wise in you approach: They must make a conscious decision to follow Christ, they must count the cost (Matthew 16:24). But here's where its out of yours and my hands: Only God can produce faith and repentance in you kids heart (Eph 2:8-10), you are the messenger bringing the gospel. One of scariest and comforting things about salvation, is that you are to explain the gospel, live faithfully and obediently but the end result of faith and repentance is out of your hands.

I hope this helps and God bless you and you family.6/19/2006 08:23:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Matthew Woodside|W|P|in response to venturesum:

thank you for the humble and gracious way you provided your comment.

I think there is wisdom in the way you are cautious, but I believe there is also some biblical error in taking that approach.

Salvation has to be looked at from two perspectives. Eternal and temporal. God, in His perfect wisdom sees the eternal. We, in our finite wisdom, see the temporal. The Bible speaks of salvation in terms of election, predestination when it speaks of God's work in the past; it speaks of faith, repentance, belief, trust, commitment when it adresses matters pertaining to the present, and it speaks of glorification, perfection, maturity when it adresses matters in the future.

I think the danger with telling our kids that they are safe until a certain age, is that is doesn't take into consideration that we are condemned already because of our sin. We do not grow into condemnation with age, we are condemned already (John 3:16-18).

Different denominations handle this idea of original sin or imputed guilt differently. Some baptize infants, some preach confirmation and then others preach an age of accountability. All three, I believe, are incorrect. Baptists have long been adamantly against infant baptism; Baptist doctrine advocates baptizing believers only. These believers are to have a genuine faith in Christ and to have repented from their sins. I think that you are right to be cautious in wanting your kids to understand the gospel before they commit their lives to Christ. But I think that the error lies in not presenting the gospel as soon as possible to the point that they are made aware that they are sinners and are separated from God and under His condemnation.

As far as telling your kids that "Jesus is already in their hearts," I suppose you could call that view common grace. God sustains and takes care of all people as all men are created in His image. But, this does not preclude them from being under God's wrath because of their sin.

I hope this leaves you with some encouragement: God has given you a wonderful privilege and responsibility to communicate God's salvation to your kids. As soon as possible, they have to be made aware of their sin and that it offends God. God offers forgiveness, no matter what age the child may be, if they repent and believe the gospel. This may be at six, eight, sixteen or whenever. But here's the catch, and here's where I think you are wise in you approach: They must make a conscious decision to follow Christ, they must count the cost (Matthew 16:24). But here's where its out of yours and my hands: Only God can produce faith and repentance in you kids heart (Eph 2:8-10), you are the messenger bringing the gospel. One of scariest and comforting things about salvation, is that you are to explain the gospel, live faithfully and obediently but the end result of faith and repentance is out of your hands.

I hope this helps and God bless you and you family.6/12/2006 07:30:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|If I link to an article on this blog, you know it has to be good because I can't stand blogs that constantly link to other blogs like a dog chasing its tail. Ben Wright, over at paleoevangelical, addresses a topic that I've rarely seen broached -- It deals with the issue of churches relocating to different neighborhoods. If we are to be perfectly candid, many, if not most, churches do so for racial and socio-economic reasons. White-flight is still alive and well in many parts of the country. At the same time, let's be honest.... transitioning a church as a neighborhood changes is an impressive challenge that is painful at best and rife with the potential for major problems before, during and after. Ben does a great job in asking his readers to consider some very pointed questions. I hope you'll read his article. You can do so by clicking HERE.|W|P|115015525521934404|W|P|An Article Worth Contemplation|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/12/2006 10:03:00 AM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|After a few days off, re-entry into the world you left behind is often difficult under the best of circumstances. What with piles of mail, clothes to unpack/wash/put away, email to answer, getting back onto the treadmill... it really kind of "undoes" a vacation. But this week-end was a particularly rough 're-entry'. I made a decision that I would try to avoid being gone on Sunday's this summer with the possible exception of taking Nathan to college. I was out of the pulpit more than I like in the first quarter of this year due to missions trips and chaperoning the Senior Trip, so I felt it would be healthier for the church if I arranged my personal time off to permit me to be home on Sundays. So... after five days in Orlando, we loaded up the gang and drove like mad all day long Saturday so I could be here to preach and teach in three services Sunday. We pulled in the driveway around 8:40 or so Saturday evening. There was just enough light remaining that I took a quick tour of my garden and checked in on the flock of chicks I inherited from one of our school teachers the last week of school. The kids found 3 MORE baby kittens (if you want a kitten...PLEASE call us... and soon. I have a dozen now that are ready to go.) My garden was...well...MAGNIFICENT. I can't believe how great it looked. My squash was loaded with baby summer squash and zucchini. The green beans are ready to pick. The tomatoes are 4 feet tall and loaded with blossoms and little green tomatoes. The sweet corn was lush and tall. The lettuce is even still bearing. I walked into the house and told Julie, "That is the BEST garden I've ever raised in my entire life." Then at about 11:15, the worst storm I've seen in a couple of years rolled up. Lightening flashed, the wind howled, branches were falling from trees, it hailed, it rained -- it looked like the end of the world for about 30 minutes. About 15 minutes into the storm, most of the power went out. I say "most" because there was enough left to allow the incandescent bulbs to cast off an eerie glow and the fans to spin very slowly. I'm not electrician, but I'm pretty sure that is very hard on appliances and electrical gadgets, so we started scrambling to unplug anything and everything we could. I looked down at the church and could see the same thing happening there as the parking lots went dim, but I could see the eerie glow of the security lights inside flickering. We called Duke Energy to report the problem. I have no idea why we had a "little" electricity, but shortly we were sitting by candle light. The little kids were so freaked by the howling and thunder and darkness, we had a family prayer meeting in the living room. Then all was silent. Dead silent. All night long. Oh, yeah, and it was HOT, HOT, HOT. If you know me, I like it cold and I also sleep with 2-3 fans on to provide a background noise that allows me to sleep. Right before the storm hit, I had popped an Ambien so I could rest well for Sunday. It's the only way I got any rest at all Sunday night. When I came to, I realized that the power was still off in spite of the fact that Duke Power had promised to have it on by 4:00 a.m. I looked out my window to see my garden battered beyond recognition and my corn lying flat on the ground. I got dressed and went down to the church where the operations staff was running around trying to figure out what to do. The outage was basically limited to our campus and the trees that fell on the lines were near our operations center. Someone reported the smell of burning electrical parts to me -- that's NEVER a good sign. People would be arriving for our 8:00 a.m. service and we had to make a decision. Our auditorium is huge and dark. There was no way to use it or get sufficient candlelight in there. The chapel which seats about 250 was an option, but has stained glass windows and was very dark, plus it was very hot and many of the folks who attend the 8:00 a.m. service are elderly. We decided on using one of the cafeterias that had windows and cross ventilation. It turned into one of the sweetest services I can remember in a long time. A couple of hundred folks crowded into the room. No instruments, just great old Gospel songs being sung by memory accapella. My sermon was on my laptop with no way to retrieve it, so I pulled out one I'd preached about six years ago and freshened it up. It was just a nice time of fellowship and singing and preaching and it reminded me of some of the old country services of my childhood. With no power coming on, we held our Sunday School/Bible Fellowships all over the campus. Some toughed it out in their rooms, others took chairs out under the magnolia trees, others met in the halls where ventilation was better. Now there were hundreds more people on campus. There was simply no space available to have our regular celebration service. Too many to put in a parking lot setting without a PA, too hot anyway, too much noise from I-85. So we just cancelled the second service. I've never had to cancel a service like that. I hated to do it. Because I live on campus, we don't even have to cancel for snow or ice. I can just slide down the hill and meet anyone who shows up. We'll take a huge financial hit because we weren't able to receive a regular offering....that may not sound like a big deal, but a ministry our size has a weekly offering budget of nearly $50,000. Right now, we have a pile (and I DO mean pile) of fried harddrives, cameras, servers, monitors and other electronics headed for the dumpster due to the surges and so-forth. We may be piecing things together for a couple of weeks, but that's OK....we'll manage just fine! And don't forget....God is Sovereign. This didn't catch Him by surprise. He ALWAYS takes care of our needs. Even in adversity, we learn things about Him and us. It just wasn't the way I planned on re-entering after 5 days with family. Speaking of "5 days with family".... my gang and my sister and her gang spent 5 days in Orlando. I've said often that I don't miss Florida at all (I lived there for 17 years) and this week just reminded me of how much I really mean that. If I never go to a Disney park again it will be too soon. I did enjoy Sea World and Universal's "Islands of Adventure" -- both were family friendlier and better maintained in my opinion. I was struck by the number of out (and I mean "OUT") homosexuals that worked at the parks -- particularly Disney. I know it's the "American Way" but the prices for food and drinks in the park is just obscene. We carried water and snacks, but at some point, you have to get something more substantive and it is a royal rip-off. I'd think they'd sell much more and make a larger profit if they'd just reduce the prices a little more. I bought exactly ZERO $3.50 ice cream bars. Had they been $2.00, I'd probably have bought a half dozen. But now I'm just whining. Otherwise, we had a great time with my sister, brother-in-law and their three kids. I'm so thankful to have a family with whom I always enjoy spending time and I'm equally thankful that they are willing to spend time with me. So, I'm back home and will be catching up this week. We start Vacation Bible School tonight. I'm excited about that. We are welcoming Frank Shimkis to our team as our new "Student Ministries Pastor". Frank hails from PA where he graduated from Baptist Bible College in Clark Summit. He played semi-pro basketball in Germany until an injury ended his career. Most recently, he taught AP English in an inner-city school in St. Petersburg, FL. You are going to love him! Pastor Ben Rudolph is now our "Church Planting Pastor" as he gets Providence Church going in Denver, NC. I've got a TON of emails to answer and phone calls to return. Please be patient with me if you are expecting to hear from me. And, oh yes, I'm aware that Northside was featured on the front page of "The Sword of the Lord" as some kind of screaming liberal, neo-evangelical, seeker-driven, rock-n-roll'n bastion of all that is wrong in Christianity today. All my friends(?) who still read the Sword having been sending me messages all week horse-laughing the absurdity of what was written. They think I'm the most conservative (some even say legalistic) guy they know. Our mention was part of a larger series of articles being written by self-described "fundamentalist journalist" "Dr." (It's not real, but no surprise there)Don Jasmin at the request of Sheldon Smith (Sword editor) on the recent International Baptist Network meeting that we hosted in April. It is so filled with exaggerations, mischaracterizations and outright lies, that it is mind-boggling. But I'm really not surprised. That's become par for the course of those who have lost sight of historic fundamentalism and are trying to redefine it into something it has never been. Sadly, it's just this kind of badgering, manipulative, agenda-pushing garbage that is driving hundreds of our younger men toward stuff that is philosophically unsound and even Biblically questionable. What they claim they are trying to "save", they are indeed destroying. One young guy wrote me privately last week to say, "The reason I left the Independent Baptists and became part of the SBC is exactly this kind of stuff." I think he's wrong -- the SBC has just as much pettiness and as many problems as the IB guys do. But I understand what he's saying. I haven't decided whether or not I'll respond in this blog or not. At one level, I frankly could not care less what Jasmin or Smith think of me, the church or anything else for that matter. Jasmin is an extremist, KJVO nut who speaks in conferences with the likes of Pete Ruckman and Herb Noe. He publishes a little gossip sheet similar to David Cloud's and thinks that makes him a "journalist." (Oh, and he charges for the privilege of reading his rag. For people like he and Cloud, their willingness to feed virulent appetites for controversy provides a network for them to peddle their books and tapes and to line their pockets.) Smith has overseen the demise of one of Fundamentalism's more credible newspapers running it into the ground as he has become more extreme with each issue due to trying to maintain some sort of constituency. He personally lied to me in front of witnesses right after he became the editor of the Sword about where he stood on issues within fundamentalism and how he would be using the pages of the Sword. The Sword has virtually no credibility these days with thinking fundamentalists and even less influence. It's a sad chapter in a paper that at one time had a major influence in my life and which still sends me royalties for a pamphlet they picked up and published a decade or more ago. So, "IF" I get around to it, I "MIGHT" set the record straight as to some of the more egregious misrepresentations. I would only do that because I love the people of my church. (Interestingly, to date -- not one member of my church other than my assistant who got a call from one of my friends, has mentioned the article which says a lot about the readership of the Sword these days.) I may also address what I consider to be a DANGEROUS and UNBIBLICAL practice of sending "reporters" undercover into local, Bible-Preaching churches to evaluate them and then disseminate the information. And for the record, Don Jasmin never asked me a question, requested an interview, wrote me a note or in any other way solicited information or background for me. Yeah, that's real journalism, all right. But anyway, indeed, most of those who cling to the extreme branch of fundamentalism exemplified by the Sword are not folks who we're wanting to become part of our church family. We're about reaching the unsaved, developing discerning thinkers through expositional preaching and teaching, engaging in personal discipleship, worshipping the Lord in "spirit" and in "Truth", fellowship with the called-out assembly, ministering to those within and without the Body and being a place of prayer and grace. I do not apologize for what we believe and the implications of that throughout our church. So let Jasmin and Smith rail. We're just going to keep doing what we are doing as humbly and Biblically as we possibly can. And they can keep dredging for gossip, scandal and negative tales while living out the shrewish and controlling strategies and agendas that motivate them. Northsiders, I'll now be starting my series on "A Few Good Men -- Developing Biblical Manhood in the Home and Church" this coming Sunday due to the weather problems of last week-end. Don't forget the kick-off of our Men's Ministry on Monday, June 19th in the FAC. Load up your cars with non-Northside kids for VBS tonight and all week long! We're going to have a great week!|W|P|115012485353801919|W|P|Re-Entry and Catching Up|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/12/2006 12:50:00 PM|W|P|Blogger The Scriptural Truth|W|P|I agree with your assessment of the Sword, Smith and Jasmin.

Its sad to see where things have degenerated in the "Fundamentalist" circles.

I once thought of myself and identified myself as a Fundamentalist. (And I might add that I still hold to the historic understanding of what it means to be a Fundamentalist.) Of course, somebody has changed the definition to mean something completely differant and it seems to continue to evolve in differant circles.

I simply want to be identified today as one that believes with all of his Bible soaked heart in the Fundamentals of the Faith.

I was reading just yesterday Dr. Criswell's "Why I Believe the Bible is LIterally True" and was blessed again by this dear departed brother's stand on the Word of God during a critical time in the SBC.

Dan, I'm not as eloquent in my writing as you are my brother :) , you are good. I just want to encourage you to please keep it up and please write a response that could be published in some periodical, such as the Biblical Evangelist. (I believe Robert Sumner would publish it like he did for Joy Martin and the Rice sisters when Joy wrote about the present day Sword of the Lord as compared to what her father beieved in as the founder and editor.)6/16/2006 05:43:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Matthew Richards|W|P|Pastor Burrell,

The fact that the SOTL would stoop to this level did not surprise me at all. They have continued to go downhill and none of the young fundies that I know would waste their time reading it. My pastor and I talked about this yesterday over a cup of coffee--he tuned out as soon as they jumped on the KJVO bandwagon.

I am not very familiar with your church or ministry, but since the SOTL "thinks" you are in error I believe you are my kind of Fundamental brother! May the LORD continue to bless the ministry He has entrusted to you.

Matthew Richards (HAC Grad 1995)6/09/2006 08:16:00 AM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|Part 2: A Case for a “No Spin Zone” of News that Interests Fundamentalists (Part 1 can be found HERE.) Perhaps some consideration should be given to these thoughts, and certainly these thoughts can also be used for additional debate and discussion. First, the Internet has obviously become a place where even Christians can find news of interest to them in a “no-spin zone.” Let’s be honest. Fundamentalists have done a lousy job dealing with sins and failures in the movement over the years. From Billy Sunday’s kids, to J. Frank Norris’s tyrannical leadership, to Jack Hyles's egomaniacal self-promotion, to David Hyles'’s gross and repeated immorality, to Bill Pennell’s dual life that led him to strip joints, and worse to Bob Gray’s arrest for child molestation, throughout the last century, we’ve covered and uncovered enough failures and outright wickedness in the ranks of self-proclaimed Fundamentalism to make the hierarchy of the Catholic church feel morally superior. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Many lesser “stars” in the fundamentalist galaxy have destroyed their lives and damaged the reputation of Christ’s Church with sins that did not earn for them the scandal du jour at a fellowship meeting. At the same time, Fundamentalism has systematically called out, ridiculed, stigmatized, and at times slandered Christian brothers in leadership who may not be on the same particular branch of the evangelical tree as where we live but who are fellow believers nonetheless. The ferocity of our “exposure” of them has been stunning at times. Some examples might include John MacArthur and the “blood,” Jerry Falwell and “politics,” Tim Lee and the “SBC,” Billy Graham and “ecumenicism,” and a litany of folks who enjoy praise and worship music or even CCM. (For the record, this author is not necessarily in agreement with the positions taken by some he has used as examples.) Seriously, within Fundamentalism, greater courtesy is given (in some circles) to those who commit adultery than to someone who preaches for a Southern Baptist church or who has drums on his platform. In the broader world, beyond the ivory palaces of our pastoral office suites, many in the pews are just not buying this dichotomy of logic. While there are, without a doubt, issues that require public rebuke and practical separation, it can honestly be said that there is a double standard about what constitutes “news” that is “fit to print” within Fundamentalism. Continuing, it might be suggested that some who have a problem with the free distribution of information that otherwise might have been swept under the proverbial rug are frustrated with the growing inability to cover, protect, or “spin” scandalous information or even regular news. This problem creates a loss of control on their parts, and--let’s be honest--many in spiritual leadership in Fundamentalism are all about control. Today’s upstart, younger generation is less respectful of things like heritage, tradition, and protocol that gives deference to the preceding generation(s). They are used to having instant access to information, getting all the facts so they can reach their own decisions, asking tough questions, and probing when they get half-baked answers. They like to think for themselves, and part of the process of reaching valid conclusions requires them to debate, pry, and probe out loud. To those of us who were reared in a different generation, we’ve been far more willing to “wink” at those who have “idiosyncrasies” (spelled s-i-n problems) out of respect for their position or accomplishments. This author could type the name of an extremely well-known, nationally influential (retired) pastor who is legendary for swearing in private and in the pulpit. (We’re not talking about saying “gosh” or “darn” but words that used to get people’s mouths washed out with soap.) BUT . . . he’s been a major fundamentalist leader for nearly 80 years. So we just roll our eyes and mutter excuses. But if Franklin Graham or John Hagee or Bill Gaither were to use such language, the same eye-rollers would roundly and soundly condemn him as a foul-mouthed reprobate. Well, let’s just say that the “young fundamentalists” aren’t as likely to respect the intellectual dualism that older fundies have tolerated for years. These guys grew up watching Jimmy Swaggart quiver his lip and declare, “I have sinned”; and remember all too well the scene of Jim Bakker being dragged out of the court house, whimpering like a little girl. These scenes have, without a doubt, brought huge disrepute in the “secular” world, but they have also created a disgust toward and no small amount of cynicism in the world of conservative Christians as well. Richard Nixon forever removed the protective bubble of U.S. presidents. Jim Bakker did it for Christianity. Another consideration is the growing sophistication of Fundamentalism. Apart from the commitment to the arts and academic excellence that the Bob Jones dynasty brought to Fundamentalism, much of this branch of Christianity through the last 120 years or so was largely a rural, southern, and less-educated constituency marked with a rowdy adherence to the rhetoric that many fundamentalist preachers turned into an art form. But in the last 30 to 40 years, Fundamentalism has become more “mainstream,” and many fundamentalist churches are filled with college-educated, affluent, and successful businessmen and businesswomen who are less inspired by the historical style of Fundamentalism and more interested in the doctrinal substance of genuine fundamentalist theology. These folks expect access to information, they demand that they are part of a decision-making process, and they are astute enough to notice when something is amiss. The pastor is no longer an “icon” but a leader. He may be a shepherd, but they don’t qualify as “dumb sheep.” They are demanding and articulate.” “Just because the preacher says so” doesn’t cut it anymore. Thus, they expect to be informed when there is a problem within the Church or within broader Christianity. They want to be assured that people notice and that steps to deal with failures are in place. They know their Bibles well enough that terms like “church discipline” and “plurality of church elders” are part of their lexicon. They want integrity and authenticity and accountability from their leadership. They can smell a phony, a crook, or someone who is “over their head” from a mile away. Simply put, they expect-- even demand--the clear, accurate communication of information. Perhaps it is wise to consider the motivation that some might have in wanting to keep “bad” news or “scandals” quiet. Some earnestly believe that the release of such news can be cause for discouragement to the church, that the reputation of Christ will be damaged in the world. They honestly want to protect what they view as the public perception of Christianity, fearing that public sins will lead to damnation or discouragement on the part of those who “hear” about it. These are not arguments without merit. Certainly, one of the reasons we should deal with many issues that involve civil offenses internally (contract disputes, personal offenses, etc.) is because we don’t want to give the world opportunity to scorn the Church of Christ. But this reasoning begs the question-- what about issues that are not merely civil but criminal? What about the tendency among “independent” fundamentalist churches to watch other churches welcome, embrace, even elevate those who have left previous churches as members or leaders because of a sin issue or scandal? With no denominational oversight, many who are really not qualified to serve in spiritual leadership can just disappear from the context of their failure only to “reappear” somewhere else and take off right where they left off. Indeed, the man who commits adultery or embezzles without being confronted--repenting and restored--will not find it a far journey to lie to another board or church. And the news of the past may never reach the new location--particularly in small churches in rural areas across the country. Let’s refer to the Bob Gray scandal as a case in point. I wonder how many churches who had been faithfully sending him money so that he could live and allegedly minister in Germany for the last 15 years knew that he had been privately censored or disciplined by the church he had pastored. Indeed, he was a national speaker who, at the time of his arrest, was scheduled to speak at multiple missions conference and national meetings across the United States. His former church did not issue a warning. The media had not yet picked up on the accusations that had been made. There was not denominational oversight available since he was an independent Baptist. Imagine, if you will, that a simple report that “Bob Gray was disciplined by his church for sins that disqualified him from future ministry” were posted on a website some 15 years ago. Perhaps an opportunity to the church and to Bob Gray could have been offered, allowing them to make a statement. How many churches would have enabled him to leave the country and to resume ministry on the dime of tithing believers all across the nation? Which scenario--the simple report or the enabling of a suspected pedophile-- would have ultimately caused greater harm to the reputation of Christ and the Church? The “independence” of most within Fundamentalism is a source of pride and identity for many. Even among Southern Baptists (the recognized largest non-Catholic denomination in the United States), their commitment to “local church autonomy” leaves them vulnerable to a lack of forthrightness and accountability in similar situations. Yet this “independence” may also be a great liability. Certainly, it allows those who possess the character to exploit it as they run from sin that should end their public ministries. With those thoughts in mind, it is the opinion of this blogger and commentator that the responsible posting of news, transitions, failures, and faults is a good thing. It increases accountability. It reassures those who are cynical that the truth will come out. It has the potential to stop gossip and petty speculation. It warns the reader that there is a cost to the moral failure of public leadership beyond the small and often insulated circle in which they live. It invites serious discussions of the vulnerabilities of man, the danger of pride, the course of sin, the path for restoration, the need for grace, the consequences of tragic failures, the dependency we have on Christ, and the importance of keeping our eyes fixed on Christ. Finally, it is a good time to discuss the need for personal responsibility in posting information. To be accurate, no one can stop people from publishing information on the Internet. The best we can hope for is the development of reliable and responsible site authors who will do their homework and present the information in a careful and biblical manner. Perhaps the following would provide a framework for additional conversation on what would help a spirit of self-government in this arena: 1. Let the facts speak for themselves. There is a difference between “news” and “commentary.” Both are valuable in their own way; but “news” isn’t “commentary,” and “commentary” isn’t “news.” There should be a clear line of demarcation between the two. That doesn’t mean a “news report” can’t have an “opinion” response in a blog. It doesn’t mean that forums for discussion shouldn’t be provided. The commentary and discussions permit those impacted by the news report to process it and to reach a right and biblical conclusion. A news report simply reports what is known. That should be the starting point. 2. We should remember that what is “news” to conservative Christians is not necessarily news to the rest of the world. The resignation of Dave Jaspers at Maranatha is of little interest outside of Watertown, Wisconsin; the Maranatha family; and a particular branch of Fundamentalism. But for those within those worlds, the natural response is going to be “why?”, and an “official statement” (that said very little) by the college is not going to suffice. Thus, while some may be scandalized that there might be “more to the story,” the news really can’t be extrapolated as having the potential to drag the name of Christ through the mud. So some sort of conflict arose between the president and the board. The president decided to move on. He cited concern over his workload and his family. That’s really not huge news outside of a small piece of the world. People have conflicts, change jobs, resign, move on to other interests, and make decisions for the good of their family all of the time. It’s the “secrecy” that sometimes invites more interest than it is due. Putting the facts out may shorten the gossip cycle considerably. 3. Separate the discussion from the dissemination. Let’s admit this--discussion will occur when someone resigns, is arrested, or gets forced out of office. It is just going to happen. But again, keeping the “commentary” away from the “news” doesn’t mean we should eliminate the commentary or the discussion. Instead, we should give consideration to making an “editorial” page or a “comments section” in a forum or apart from the news article itself. Depending on the policy and involvement of the site administration, information may be monitored for propriety. Let’s face it, the anonymity of the Internet can turn otherwise nice people into ugly meanies. Some of it is because one can’t communicate vocal inflections or wit or hyperbole easily in print (in spite of the extremely cliché and overused “emoticons”). A lot of the time, we simply get real “brave” when we can be anonymous. Perhaps that alone is reason enough to require serious participants to register with a real identity or at least a valid e-mail address. 4. We should practice self-regulation. Not everything that “can” be said “should” be said. When someone gets out of line, he should be called on it. If someone is a serial offender, we should “ban” him from the discussion. People should be able to ask painful and genuine questions without getting flamed as a critic or trouble-maker. At the same time, people shouldn’t be allowed to set off a verbal “bomb” in the room through some wild accusation or flaming rhetorical flourish and then slip back into the shadows of anonymity without consequence. 5. We should realize that journalism and debate are inexact sciences. Corrections will have to be made. There is a learning curve. The Internet is evolving as it matures. The culture is changing, but truth doesn’t change. There will always exist a tension between truth and expectations, trends and culture. Let’s recognize that tension and allow it to keep us honest. Let’s not misuse that tension and require that it render us silent. This has been a lengthy essay. There will be much over which some may wish to take umbrage or to extend the debate. But let the debate continue. It’s healthy, it’s valuable, and it’s important. But let the truth always be spoken in love. And let our news only be that which is fit to print.|W|P|114985554949504721|W|P|The Christian Blogosphere and All the News That’s Fit to Print - Part 2|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/09/2006 10:05:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Larry|W|P|Thanks Dan, for part II. Can I play the devil's advocate here for a minute? You say,

This author could type the name of an extremely well-known, nationally influential (retired) pastor who is legendary for swearing in private and in the pulpit.

Isn't this part of the problem you are addressing? People who "could ... name" people in sin do not. And so everyone else is left to not know, and to continue having him in to speak because someone didn't "type the name"?

I am not sure how public we should make these things, and I am not asking you to reveal this man, though I probably know who you are talking about, but that's not really my point.

I enjoyed your article. Just wondering if you aren't playing both sides of the fence here.

Turn it around: If someone said, "I could type the name right now of a fundamentalist pastor and missionary who has been accused of and admitted to sexual abuse of little girls" but then refused to name the name, wouldn't you say they are wrong? Isn't that what you are (rightly) complaining about?6/09/2006 10:13:00 AM|W|P|Blogger The Scriptural Truth|W|P|Good post, Dan. Keep up the good work.

I check your blog every day and commend you on your writing ability.

I talked with you at the NRB a couple of years ago at one of the displays in the exhibition hall.

I pastor Central Fellowship Baptist Church in Macon, GA.

I've linked your blog on my personal website at rodneyqueen.com.

Keep up the good work.

Rodney

p.s. have you seen this week's edition of the Sword of the Lord? I'm sure that someone has told you about it by now...cause you're in it. :)6/09/2006 02:20:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Brad|W|P|Dan,

Periodically I check your blog because you present a relatively balanced view on Indp. Fundamentalism, thus I can get more accurate news regarding what is going on in the movement.

As a 25 year old X-Ind Fundy, I just wanted to point out that the issues you mention here are some of the major reasons myself and many of my younger generation friends abandoned the movement with no desire to ever come back. I don't comment to be ugly. As a matter of fact I learned principles that will always be with me from the FUND. IND Baptists. I grew up in the movement, went to TTU, Southwide the whole 9 yards, but didn't buy into it.

Anyway, I'm glad there are a few Indp. guys around that can think.6/09/2006 04:17:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Unknown|W|P|This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.6/09/2006 11:04:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Larry,

Good point! I wondered if anyone would catch that and call me on it and you were the first.

I actually deleted and repasted it several times finally deciding to leave it in to see how folks would react. I actually had four objectives or hypotheses related to this "illustration" and three have been met in comments here or in the SI discussion thread.

At this point, I regret having left it in, but will say that I learned a lot by including it. Some of my suspicions were confirmed and I actually find the responses (or lack thereof) to be fascinating. I probably should be flogged by a real journalist for putting the incident in, however.

For those who have inquired...I have no intention of confirming or denying who the individual might be. It's not important. Our response is.

Thanks, Larry...

Dan6/16/2006 10:39:00 AM|W|P|Anonymous Anonymous|W|P|Bro Dan very good post. I am an independent fundamental baptist preacher. I want to Pastor but sometimes I wonder if it needs to be an independent baptist. I attended Trinity and knew nothing about the accusations. However I do know the some of our movements prominient leaders have had indescretions in their ministries. I don't think we need to beat these people down, but I do believe they need to be held accountable for their actions. Again great post and I hope that I will be able to come to this blog more often.6/07/2006 10:36:00 PM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|I'm still on a brief vacation (M-F) with my family and extended family in Theme Park Purgatory (Orlando). No time to blog my own thoughts this week, but I did get a copy of Warren Smith's most recent editorial and I thought there was some thought-provoking points in it. So here it is... (For the record, I've been going to Branson since they only had 2-3 shows and Silver Dollar City was free. It's not a bad place to go for vacation, but Warren nails the schlocky "religiousity cum patriotism" that permeates the place and draws a wider point from it.) Deliver us From Branson By Warren Smith With the summer coming on, I’m getting press releases from all sorts of vacation destinations and their public relations representatives. Because we’re in the Christian media, I guess some of these places feel an obligation to tell me how “faith-friendly” these places are. Here’s one example. A lady named Cindy Shorey recently wrote a story that was distributed to the Christian media about Branson, Missouri. She said that what sets Branson apart is its “higher purpose for the area.” She said Branson is a “town where God, flag, and country take center stage.” She said that stars such as Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard, and Wayne Newton put on shows in Branson that “you wouldn’t be embarrassed to take your family to.” You know, I like Willie Nelson well enough. But I would be embarrassed to take my family to a Wayne Newton show I don’t care how clean it was. I should probably mention at this point that Cindy Shorey, who wrote this press release, also happens to be country music star Mel Tillis’s daughter. Mel Tillis built a 110,000-square-foot theatre in Branson and later sold it to the Assemblies of God denomination for use as a conference center. Ms. Shorey now manages this conference and is actively promoting the town. I’m not opposed to a relaxing vacation from time to time. But am I the only one who finds it a bit distasteful that just because Willie and Merle don’t use the F-word in their Branson shows we’re now ready to call them family-friendly? Just because Wayne Newton takes a break from his Las Vegas casino hopping to sing “God Bless America” in Branson, I don’t see that as much of a cause to celebrate. There was an old Saturday Night Live mock commercial about a dating service. The dating service ad asked the viewer if he was having trouble having meaningful, high-quality relationships. If so, the dating service advised, they had just the answer: “Lower your expectations.” It seems to me that this is what the Christian community has done at every turn. In worship services, we hide scripture, creeds, hymns, and public confession of sin, and responsive readings in order to make our services friendlier for the unchurched. We’ve lowered our expectations of government. There used to be a time when government did for its citizens what the citizens could not do for themselves. Now, those things that the government is supposed to do, such as keep our borders secure, it does badly. And things that others can do better, such as educate our children, it also does – just as badly. Churches used to uphold marriage as between one man and one woman for life. Now, divorce and remarriage in the church is so common that we have lost our credibility when we speak out about other even more bizarre forms of “marriage.” And now, even in our entertainment, we’ve lowered our expecations – as if the expectations there were not already low enough. The Bible says that whatever is good and excellent, these are things we should pursue. We’ve chosen instead to pursue the base and the crass. We take the most vulgar and banal aspects of society and say, “If Christians take these things over, that will make them good.” It won’t; it will just make Christians ridiculous. It just shows how low our expectations have become that we now no longer attempt to change the culture. Instead, we seem to be happy changing the culture that even most unbelievers say is beneath them. And, ironically, we often say that we go to this trouble so that the “world” will take notice. Oh, they’ve noticed, all right. One day, I guess we’ll get a chance to see how our lowered expectations measure up against God’s standards for us. We’ll get a chance to see how far short we fell from God’s highest and best for us. In the meantime, I pray – as Jesus commanded me -- that God will deliver me from evil, including places like Branson, Missouri. ----------------- Warren Smith is the publisher of “The Charlotte World.” He can be reached at warren.smith@thecharlotteworld.com|W|P|114973447370493767|W|P|Warren Smith on "Deliver Us from Branson"|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/03/2006 11:10:00 AM|W|P|Dan Burrell|W|P|I believe that if many who sit in the pews knew of the private struggles of the men behind the pulpits, they'd be surprised. I'm not a pastor of pastors by anyone's definition, but I do network with a LOT of pastors from all over the evangelical plantation from Straight-Arrow fundamentalists to Sloppy Agape evangelicals and I will tell you that many of my friends in the ministry are stressed, worn-out, burned out and depressed. They feel beaten up, empty and alone. Few have friends at all and those they have are often in the same condition in which they find themselves. Just broaching this subject will bring on the pious critics who only make life the more miserable for hurting shepherds. I'm sure some will think, if not post in the comment section, things like, "Well, this is a spiritual problem" or "It's because their polity is unBiblical" or "They have a pride/ego problem" or "they shouldn't be in the ministry if that's how they are" or some other vapid and unhelpful knee-jerk reply. But I DO think it is important to raise it. The expectations of church members, the politics of local churches, the grind of spiritual warfare and the pressures of people's expectations forces many, perhaps, most pastors to live in a spiritually toxic bubble. Many, particularly those in mid-life and beyond, often have extended periods of their ministry during which they are going through the motions, trying to survive, staying because of their character and a desire to fulfill their calling while at the same time, feeling like the are drowning. An additional matter to which I can relate personally is the requirement that today's pastor must spend SO MUCH of his time doing things that outside of what their heart cries to do -- which is generally preaching and teaching the Word of God and spending time building His Church. Instead, administration nags like a shrewish wife eating up massive blocks of time that could otherwise be devoted to spiritual pursuits. Today's Senior Pastor is expected to be the epitome of the deep and dedicated minister, but also an administrator, financial manager, legal expert, human resources director, general contractor, counselor, referee, community activist, educator, micromanager, macromanager, philosopher and oh, by the way...make sure your marriage is healthy and your kids well-behaved. In other words, even Superman would crawl into a whimpering fetal position under his bed at the prospect of meeting those expectations. Invariably, when I raise a concern about burn-out in the ministry, someone says, "Well, [snicker, grin, guffaw], bless gawd (and yes, the profanity of that commonly used expression is not lost on me), I'd rather burn out than rust out! Can I get an 'amen'?" Well, from my way of looking at things, whether you "burn out" or "rust out", "out" is still "out." This need not be the case. I'm not going to try and get into all the causes and effects of this problem in the ministry in this blog. I can't envision that I would be able to say anything that wouldn't lead to misunderstanding and over-reaction. Many of my own congregation read these missives and I don't want them confused or concerned. I just know this, I've got a substantial number of friends in the ministry who are just barely hanging on many days. Yes, they are good and godly men. They know all about maintaining spiritual disciplines and the dangers of becoming so busy serving the King's people that they neglect the King. They feel guilty enough already, they don't need another lecture. But I'm going to post a great interview HERE that was given by my friend, Glenn Wagner and another pastor from the AOG denomination. Glenn was the Senior Pastor of one of Charlotte's most prestigest and high profile churches -- Calvary Church. A couple of years ago, he was overtaken by depression and it almost cost him everything. It DID cost him a lot. I think many of the pastors who read this blog could benefit from reading his story. Glenn and I travel in different circles most days. He's a mainstream evangelical. I'm a fundamentalist (but not the mean kind.) He lives on one side of Charlotte. I live on the other side. But we are brothers in Christ and the ministry. I hope that you'll give his article a read. I think it will serve as a warning and an affirmation to many. ---------- On a personal note, after services on Sunday, I'm off to a family vacation for five days with my gang and my sister and her family. (Northsiders, I will be back for Sunday services next week.) Don't look for much on the blog next week until Friday when I'll post the second half of my Sharper Iron article on the Christian Blogosphere.|W|P|114934891039722051|W|P|Pastors and Depression -- A Good Article|W|P|jdpettus@gmail.com6/03/2006 08:39:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Matthew Woodside|W|P|I think people in the pews do not realize the irrevocable call on a pastor's life. While Scripture does speak to desiring the office of a bishop (overseer), the person does not create that desire or desire that calling of his own accord. While someone with another job may get bored with that profession and move on to something else, a pastor doesn't have that option. If a pastor decides to quit the ministry, he faces disastrous consequences, a life of disobedience and rebellion. Unfortunatley, the only reason for a man to live the ministry, is when he disqualifies himself through his behavior. Heaven only knows how many men have "intentionally" disqualified themselves through their behavior because they wanted out.

A pastor may go through brief periods of depression where he doesn't "feel" like being a pastor. Or he may go through long bouts of clinical depression where he not only wants out of the ministry but he wants out of the responsibilities of life, period.
Just because he has a call of God on his life does not make him immune to this struggle; in fact it probably makes him more susceptible.

It is comforting to know that men God has used mightily throughout redemptive history have been bombarded with depression, burn out and just plain tiredness and frustration. Paul could not escape the torment of his horrible life prior to knowing Christ. So intense was the pain that even in the midst of God's grand revelation to Paul, he was stricken with a thorn that God WOULD NOT remove. Jeremiah tried to keep the word of God to himself, but God WOULD NOT let him keep quiet. God literally drove him to speak as the word was a fire in his bones. Jesus himself was even confronted with the agony of knowing what God's will was but in his humanity pleading for God to remove the suffering. The Father WOULD NOT remove it though. All three of these men, Jesus, Paul and Jeremiah can greatly attest to the spiritual and emotional struggles that pastors in the throes of depression face. In their efforts to be obedient to God, their emotions and their mental state was severely tested. I don't think it is a stretch at all to say that David in the Psalms classifies as a man facing depression. He speaks to his soul being downcast and his heart troubled within him.

While all believers are tested to be obedient to God, it is simply very difficult to explain to the person in the pew how intense the struggle is for a pastor as he tries to lead God's people. If the people in the pew could just get a little glimpse of this, they would not cease to pray for their pastor. They would ask the Lord to guard their pastor's heart and mind from depression and spiritual and emotional burnout.6/03/2006 10:25:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Congratulations "on the trek". You win the prize for proving my point first! Great job!

Your comments are so rife with distortions and lack of perspective that I do not have the energy or inclination to even respond.

And oh yes, you figured out our dirty little secret. The reason pastors preach is because we crave attention and affirmation. That's it! Please don't tell anyone though.

Yes....that is sarcasm in full bloom.6/04/2006 12:40:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Dan Burrell|W|P|Great Post, Jim....Thanks for sharing your thoughts!6/05/2006 04:06:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Thomas Pryde|W|P|I gotta throw in my two cents here Dan...excellent thoughts BTW!

Before I was a pastor I had a very stressful job, and I can honestly say that the stress of my slice of the corporate world was significant. However, there is a different kind of stress that comes with being a pastor that is difficult to quantify and explain, but it is extraordinarily real and strong.

Rather than "stress" it seems more accurate to describe it as "sorrow." There are simply many sorrows attached to being the Pastor, and the temptation to take these sorrows on oneself is tremendous! One of our writers at NeoFundamentalist wrote a real good piece along these lines that you might find interesting as well... Defeating Discouragement6/05/2006 10:37:00 AM|W|P|Blogger J. Mark Miller|W|P|I was one of those Christians who thought depression and the like was not something a Christian "really" goes through, until I went through it myself.

Life can be hard, especially for those who know the Lord. Jesus promised peace, but He also promised hard times for those who live according to His Word.

When I first came to the place of ministry I am at now, one of the reasons we moved was to be closer to my parents to help out because of my Dad's failing health and Alzheimer's.

Within a few months of coming here, I was charged with creating two diverse style musical services for the first time, my Dad passed away, we closed and moved into our new house, etc. etc. etc.

While all of these things were good in my view (my Dad is now in glory with our Savior, what's better than that?), it was a lot to process. You look at the list of stressors on my life at that point, and I had five or six of the top ten (new "job", moving, loved one dying, etc.).

I began to feel "down" all the time. When I wasn't "down," I was either angry for absolutely no reason at all, or just "out of it." I would find myself sitting in my office staring at the wall and not know had long I had been doing so.

I prayed harder, read Scripture more, worshiped more fervently than ever before; seeking God's face for a "solution." I talked with my pastor and he said, "go see a doctor, you may have depression."

Sure enough, I saw my doctor who explained (from his Christian viewpoint) that depression can be a chemical imbalance caused by the body reacting to stress. In his eye, depression is a defense mechanism gone wrong as a result of our fallen nature. He put my on some medicine for a short time, and placed me with a local Christian counselor (whom I still visit semi-regularly).

Having gone through the fire and flood of depression, I know have a better understanding that it is something beyond control of self. I still do believe one can be depressed as a result of personal sin or of waning relationship with the Lord, but from personal experience I have witnessed depression even on the mountaintop.

Long story short, love is what brought me through. The love of my wife to put up with me and not give up on me. The love of my pastor and others around me to help me along. The love of fellow Christians who happen to be my doctor and my counselor who see me as more than just a patient, but also as a brother. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

The love of my Lord to understand and sympathize with me in my distress and to be the same God who saved my soul.6/05/2006 11:06:00 PM|W|P|Blogger Terry Lange|W|P|I do not doubt that depression is a real thing. Spurgeon spoke of it often. My question is: Is the depression caused by type A people who put too much pressure on themselves and fail to delegate responsibilities?6/06/2006 09:59:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Ken Lewis|W|P|I have been in non-ministry related leadership roles for all of my adult life. The reason many aspire to these roles, yet few are chosen and even few are successful is because leadership, in general, in tough.

However, in a business environment, leaders have many and more powerful tools at their disposal and convenience to address leadership issues. If an employee is not performing and has been appropriately counseled, they can be replaced. Compensation can also be used to send messages to employees concerning performance. Finally, if I'm reasonably good at compartmentalizing work and non-work activities, I can use my non-work time to refresh and seek balance for my life.

A Pastor's options in dealing with challenges are considerably more limited. He generally cannot 'fire' a noisy and complaining parishoner who has never known the challenge of leadership. He has a limited ability to use compensation as a tool to drive behavior on the staff and some of his "customers", e.g., his flock, frequently use their contributions to the church as a barometer of how much or little they liked the last message preached.

God Bless our Pastors! They have taken a calling for which they are almost always 'on duty', receive a fraction of the compensation they could earn in a secular position, and have to tolerate incompentence at a level that would drive most Corporate managers off the deep end. Pastors are expected to be all things to all people and yet they are just human like the rest of us and trying to do God's will to help lead the Church.

May we all do a better job supporting our church leadership through prayer, a kind word and an attempt to be a part of the initiatives and solutions being driven by our Pastors rather than part of the problems or obstacles.6/06/2006 10:23:00 AM|W|P|Blogger Robert|W|P|Goarmy,

I generally agree with your comment, (and Dan's post), but you say something I often hear but seldom see...the reference to pastors who are only making a fraction of what they could earn. While it's true there are some (Dan is a great example), there are many pastors who are earning far more than they could ever make in the "real" world. They are poorly trained, lack motivation and skills, and have landed in a cushy job (at least for their talent level) that pays them far more than they're worth by any objective measure. And I say this as a person who believes churches, at least independent Baptist ones, underpay their pastors. But I've seen quite a few of these guys who are willing to complain about the pay scale of the ministry who, as my dad used to say, aren't worth the powder it would take to blow them up.